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Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936

 Re: twayneb

Thank you twayneb, again well said very well!!

 2012/6/23 13:51Profile

Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936

 Re: sermonindex

I will for sure agree that David Wilkerson,Paul Washer and Denny Kenaston was and are mightly used of God and have shown what a life yeilded to the Spirit can produce. I hope nothing I have said is interpeted other wise. If so I apologize!

I do not have all the answers, God is contunuily changing my perspectives, But something seems to me to be flawed in the system. I do not as of yet have a perfect solution or know exactly what the perfect model should look like. just questions

 2012/6/23 13:58Profile


I would add that more of a plurality of leadership and preaching should be occuring in fellowships instead of one man.

To help faciltate this I would suggest no preaching on tithing but only free will offering.

The pastors should be encouraged to take up regular jobs unless the fellowship votes to have them on full time support. But only with free will offerings not tithe.

I am sure this suggestion will not wash with some.
you do not need to respond for or against on my suggestion in this thread. I offer it only as something to pray and think about.

Lets keep the peace of God and press on !!!!!

 2012/6/23 14:27

Joined: 2002/12/11
Posts: 38276
"Pilgrim and Sojourner." - 1 Peter 2:11


I do not have all the answers, God is contunuily changing my perspectives, But something seems to me to be flawed in the system. I do not as of yet have a perfect solution or know exactly what the perfect model should look like. just questions

Yes dear brother we are all on a journey in this way. But the most important thing is being fruitful in our walks with the Lord along the way. I have watched many who critize the church or the institutions yet their own life is barren, they have not led anyone to the Lord nor are they being used of God in anyway. Yet some in these institutions might not see clearly some of the faults in their group or denomination yet they are being used of the Lord to build His kingdom.

I have found it is better to be in the latter category in the Lord's eyes. May we always be fruitful in the Lords work (John 15).

I would add that more of a plurality of leadership and preaching should be occuring in fellowships instead of one man.

Another thought also is that it is not important for us to question what is evangelical or being practiced in churches but rather but is biblical. It is easy to tear down but hard and requires the Spirit of God to build up.

Instead of labelling all denominations that currently exist in America as wrong in many ways it would be better to clarify some practices they could adopt or change that might be more biblical.

Single elder leadership was normal in many local churches in the New Testament but you also see a plurality, but even in that plurality there is always a recognition in my mind of who has more spiritual authority from the Lord.

It would be helpful to share bible truths on this in another thread to discuss this specific issue.

SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2012/6/23 15:29Profile


In love, I disagree- they were/are part of a system. I am not saying God did not bless His work through that system, nor am I saying that "house churches" are necessarily in and of themselves automatically more holy/Biblical. But, the Body ministry mentioned in what's to take place when believers meet together (by example in Acts & laid out clearly by Paul as foundations in the letters to the Corinthians) are not being followed in this modern "system". All the language used to describe "if one has a psalm, another a tongue, let the prophets prophesy, one at a time, not more than 3-5, & let the others judge" etc., etc. IS NOT taking place in the modern system. Don't tell me what this man did, how he was used, & how it worked out OK for this man and that. I'm not disputing God used it in form irregardless of its disregard for how He laid it out for us in His Word. Heck, there were some who didn't even know God & who did it for their own glory who were preaching alongside the disciples, & "at least the Gospel was still preached", but that doesn't make it "correct" because God even blesses and works through our making it up as we go, does it?
All that matters now, & really ever did though we have refused to see it for some reason, is what does Gods Word tell us is to be the setup, function, & nature of our meetings and our leadership? That matters more than what any man says, regardless of how great God has/hasn't used Him. I'm not advocating not having Bishops, deacons, overseers, elders, etc. as the scripture commands. Never did. I'm saying this thing we setup now has people with those titles and little else like the Biblical model laid out in the scriptures. I'm not saying some groups may not vary with some others on some interpretive minor doctrines, but that still doesn't mean the one-man show with no real Body ministry in our meetings is Biblical. It's not. It's just not. It's anti-Biblical. It's more like the Catholic Church or the Jewish synogauge than the early church and what Paul lays out in 1 Corinthians.
I'm not being critical. I'm just saying compare what we have now to what's in the scripture & every man discern for himself, "Is this a match to what's laid out in the Word of God?" they weren't suggestions or one more format to try and see if it works or not. They were inspired instructions for all ages of the church to lay foundations for the Body of Christ meeting together and sharing the ministries of Christ in our midst. Mark my words, when persecution does come, it will force this type of gathering together, we will reevaluate as a whole how we should meet according to scripture (maybe after the one man who held it all together fainted, got martyred, or walked away at the heat) & we will get back to Gods original plan finally before Christ's second coming. The spirit of prophesy is the Spirit of Jesus & He is beginning that foundational work in many places now for when it does come.
Yes, the men & what's in their hearts & lives matter most supremely. Men can hide in their sins quietly rather easily in this system we have today. That's why so many love it do for their religious setup. In close, real, true fellowship where the Holy Spirit is moving in His gifts among His Body, these things are exposed, dealt with and repented of, or causal for removal in hopes of restoration after the destruction of the flesh. This is how God designed it and recorded it in His Word. Every deviation which ends up way off path begins with "Did God really say?". He already provided the pattern. Will we proudly fight it and use the reflective tactic of "well, no church is perfect" of "look what this man of God did within that system" or "I know a house church thing that didn't work" or whatever? Im not even focused on where we meet, but how we meet and what happens when we do? Is it another 1 hour sermon with no real Body ministry spoken of in the Word of God, or is it dependent on the Spirit? I'm not discrediting the men, but telling you the system is flawed, has met the point of diminishing returns, & will soon be cast aside. I believe we will see it soon, God as my witness.
In Christ's Love - Jeff

 2012/6/23 16:06


One last observation:
I have noticed many cast away the call to return to the Lord, His Word, His foundational doctrines clearly outlined in the Word, etc by saying:
"I know many who do/say these things and don't have a solid inner-man spiritual life" or "I knew some who preached like this and then had closer sins", etc.
Does that then void the Word of God? Does the disobedience or lack of maturity in others give us the liberty to trample the Word of God? I have known people like that. I've been like that in the past. The Lord deposited a gift in me (I was out preaching on the streets, in a "church", in fellowship among brethren, etc.), but still struggled greatly with a besetting sin. I have since cast it away and the Lord gloriously delivered me from it. I have no skeletons in my spiritual closet of grievous known sin. However, I'm not perfect and do have things the Lord is continually dealing with me about.
That is true of all preachers from all persuasions in all "systems/formats", cause until Christ comes back, we are being changed from glory to glory. That's why I steer away from "well, this guy did that" or "I think this or that" & steer towards the Word of God and the Spirit of God and His calling.
True, a sinning witness is a bad witness and on dangerous ground, as anyone who teaches has stricter judgment. Still, the Word of God should speak for itself. I don't care for the method of discerning what is true by "comparing themselves by themselves", but by the Word of God. We are all imperfect, but His children are seeking to be made more like Him, being chastised/corrected when necessary, & growing. All "systems" are imperfect because the people are imperfect within them, but God's people should be seeking to "return to the old paths" and just follow the Word of God, amen?
What old paths? Those of the spiritual awakenings of early America? No. There are things that can be gleaned from this time beneficial, but we should be seeking to return to the old (original) paths laid out in God's Word. Otherwise, "each man can just do what's right in his own eyes", right? There's always a way that seems right to a man (but ends in death -spiritually if not physically), & the heart is deceitfully wicked who can know it (answer-God alone)?" we must remember He exalted His Word above His name, & that it is His love letter to us for "teaching doctrine, exhorting, correcting, reproving, encouraging, & training in righteousness."
In Christ's love - Jeff

 2012/6/23 16:25

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