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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Help: That the word of God is indeed the word of God. ..

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ET101
Member



Joined: 2010/10/26
Posts: 240


 Help: That the word of God is indeed the word of God. ..

I don't doubt that the word of God - the canon - as we have it today is the word of God. My faith is placed it in.

However. . .I have trouble defending this premise.

I have tried to address this by watching several online lectures from various seminaries. The views range from some accepting that some arguments in defense of the word of God will inevitably be circular, others accept an 'open canon' - one that they can feasible see as being added to some day if new texts are found - to a more liberal take which says that men and politics surrounded the compilation of the canon: they accept it as the word of God but stress that their faith is rather in Christ, as if to leave an air of doubt over the authority of the word of God.

So my request is, please help. Can you direct me to resources that can bring me to a solid and strong foundation/basis to stand on and confidently say and defend that the word of God is divinely inspired, inerrant and authoritative?

Thank you.

 2012/6/10 7:15Profile
ET101
Member



Joined: 2010/10/26
Posts: 240


 Re: Help: That the word of God is indeed the word of God. ..

Incidentally, I should confess and repent: I haven't actually 'tried to address' this. As if I purposefully set out to seek an answer. I have rather stumbled across seminary videos that address this question while watching the videos for other purposes.

 2012/6/10 7:27Profile









 Re: Help: That the word of God is indeed the word of God. ..

Hi ET101. I have two reasons for believing the Word is The Word of GOD.
One, because I know HIM. The omnipotent is more than capable of protecting and preserving what He wanted/wants for us to always have - until He comes.
Secondly, the Greek NT that I had, shows how many manuscripts that have backed up what we do have. And the number of manuscripts for the O.T. in another book.

Maybe there is a third reason, but that's up to each person to believe or not - but it's the testimony of His Spirit within when studying His Word from cover to cover. That inner witness, besides the amazing non-contridictory way in which each verse can be cross-referenced - whether it's NT to OT or OT to OT and so forth.

And it's "Spirit and Life".

I've worked with Alzheimer folks and even when their minds went completely - Scripture would 'pop' out of them that was appropriate to what was being said or happening around them. :) If I had no other proof - that was the most amazing of all!

Anyhow - Don't know if this will help at all, but Torrey loved The Word more than almost any man on earth. This may seem like a simplistic refutation to you - but, his studies and work in compiling his other reference books I would say, made him a trustworthy witness to our bibles reliability.

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=2011



Will be praying that He Himself would give you all the proof that you or anyone else needs to trust Him in this, completely.

 2012/6/10 8:00
openairboy
Member



Joined: 2003/9/22
Posts: 85


 Re:

Hi ET,

I am of the persuasion that the argument for Canon is *ultimately* circular and this is inevitable for ALL ultimate authorities. The Scriptures are the "Constitution" of the Kingdom of God and, as such, there is no higher authority, because there is no higher authority than God. If we could "prove" the Canon by an authority that is greater than the Canon, then that would be the ultimate authority, i.e. "I believe the Word of God, because it measures up to *this* standard." In that case, that standard would be the "canon", which is merely a standard or rule.

From the beginning, the Word of God has been the ultimate authority and, as such, there is nothing to appeal to that is greater than it. Within that there are plenty of colaborating "evidences", like history, coherence, correspondence, etc., but each of these, in and of themselves, does not "prove" the Bible is the Word of God. For example, there are plenty of historically reliable books that we would agree are not the Word of God. Also, it is impossible to historically verify every sentence of the Bible, so we can never take the "prove" from general historical reliability to it being the Word of God. I believe the same is said regarding the other reasons people give to believe the Bible.


Ultimately, I trus the sovereign Lord to give us the Scriptures he wants us to have and I freely confess it is a"faith" commitment. With that said, we are not left to believing the "irrational" nor is our "faith commitment" a leap into the dark
So, I am ultimately convinced of t through the witness of the Holy Spirit.\

 2012/6/10 8:06Profile
openairboy
Member



Joined: 2003/9/22
Posts: 85


 Re:

My tablet is acting wacky, hence the last paragraph of my previous post and I cannot fix it, so...

"Ultimately, I trust the sovereign Lord to give us the Scriptures he wants us to have and I freely confess it is a "faith commitment." With that said, we are not left to believing the "irrational" nor is our "faith commitment" a leap into the dark,, because it truly is a the "Light of the World". If it was not True, then we would be in intellectual, moral, and philosophical darkness. C.S. Lewis once said, "I believe in God like I believe in the Sun. Not because I look at it directly, but in its light I see everything else more clearly." (Paraphrase) So it is with the Scriptures. It sheds light onto all things that otherwise we would be in darkness.

The unbeliever cannot escape this circularity for the minute they seek to set forth their "canon" (standard or rule), then they are pressed with important issues that ultimately end up being circular and self-defeating, so...

Anyway, I don't want to go on and on, but that's the trajectory.

Grace & Peace.

 2012/6/10 8:12Profile









 Re: ET191

Brother let the word of God stand on its own. A trained swordsman does not need to convince anybody his sword is sharp. His skill in using the sword will show that.

The scriptures testify that the word of God is living and active and sharper than any double edged sword. It penetrated by dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow. It judges the thoughts and intentions of the heart. God told Jerimiah that his word was like fire and like a hammer which shatters a rock.

So I say again let the word stand in its own. It can defend itself. You just learn how to correctly handle it. Become an excellent samarai swordsman if the scriptures.

Bearmaster.

 2012/6/10 8:27
openairboy
Member



Joined: 2003/9/22
Posts: 85


 Re:

Bearmaster,

I am kinda with you and kinda not because if someone asks, "Why do you believe the Bible is the Word of God?" The Scriptures tells us to be prepared to give a reason for the hope that we have. Witin that, Peter tells us to set apart Jesus Christ as Lord in giving our answers, so we don't jettison the Word of God in the process.

So, I want to affirm the fact that we are to be wise in our use of the Scriptures and that it is sharper than any two-edged sword, but that two-edged sword tells us to give an answer for the hope we have.

So, the brothers question is completely legitimate and we should give reasons for why we believe.

Peace.

 2012/6/10 8:49Profile
PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

If I may interject one thing:

The Word of God is spiritually discerned. This means that to the carnal mind it is shown to be what it is not: a book of fiction not unlike Greek mythology or, in the best case, a fine moral tome of ancient Jewish wisdom and lore. Without the Holy Spirit, the treasure trove of God's Word is locked. You can argue the best defense according to men's intellect and logic to try to convince them of the truth, but you will only be fighting flesh with flesh. Carnal keys cannot open spiritual doors.

This is why I do not content with atheists and unbelievers according to the logic they are accustomed to: as though we were attorneys prosecuting and defending of God's Word in a court of law. God has designed His Word to be indefensible before the face of flesh. It is a spiritual matter, and must be treated as such.

Notice that Jesus Christ kept silent before Pilate's famous inquiry: "And what is truth?" Surely the Word of God Incarnate could convince a Roman polytheist of the truth! And surely you or I could defend the inerrancy of God's Word before the skeptics today! Jesus could have performed miracles before Herod's tribunal and settled their skepticism once and for all, but He remained silent there as well. Miracles and other tokens of "proof" aimed at satisfying fleshly logic are not God's way in persuading the carnal of the spiritual. He has a much better way.

If you want to convince someone of the veracity of God's Word, allow it to live inside you. Allow it to conform you into the image of Christ to such a degree that its supernatural power will become self-evident though you, its host. Allow it to work in you, to grant you consistent victory over sin and to purify your heart. There are multitudes of people trying to debate and defend God's Word who are in bondage to the powers of darkness. They go to seminaries and acquaint themselves with the "proof texts" but never allow the Word of God to deal with the sin in their hearts. Then, like the children of Israel confronting the Philistines on the battlefield, they wheel these "proof texts" like the Arc into the debate only to find they don't work.

Brother, if you allow the Word of God to purify your heart, you will soon find a Light emitting from your vessel that will draw others to Christ and simultaneously convince them the Bible is God's Word. This is because their spirits will be awakened, and their skeptical intellect trumped. When you do speak, the Lord will not let any of your words to fall to the ground. The Word of God will come alive without any carnal deposition on your part.

Brother Paul


_________________
Paul Frederick West

 2012/6/10 9:22Profile
Blayne
Member



Joined: 2012/5/27
Posts: 274


 Re: Help: That the word of God is indeed the word of God. ..

Hi! ET101
Forgive me, but I'm a little perplexed with your Thread.
You stated, "I don't doubt that the Word of God -the Canon- as we have it today is the Word of God. My faith is placed in it."
Then you continued, "However, I have trouble defending this premise."

The question which may arise is: How is it possible for you to have placed faith in something which you are now unable to sufficiently defend?

This problem is usually indicative of someone who has attached themselves to an ideology which neither requires faith nor the inner testimony of validity.

When someone possesses something through faith, it is because the validity of it's premise has already become irrefutable to them.

There are millions of sincere Christians who are intertwined into any varieties of ideologies and theologies and whatever. As such, it could be said of them, "Ye worship ye know not what". They have attached their consent (belief) to ideas without truly understanding their premise/origin.

But this in itself is not all that bad a thing. There are many things in our Christian experience that are best understood by the faculty of the mind alone; others require the effort of both mind and spirit and still others are reserved to the function of faith alone because it is only faith which can peer into the "evidence of things unseen".

For instance, you don't require faith to conduct research at your local museum to further educate yourself as to the origin of the Canon of scriptures. You don't require faith to engage a Google Search on the subject.

However, if you were needing to understand/comprehend things concerning "All scripture is given by inspiration of God", this is a different matter altogether. This can only be obtained through faith because all the great minds at the local museum cannot confirm this for your inner man. This is something "unseen" and only God Himself can give you "the evidence".

Do you see what I'm trying to say?
It isn't that you are unable to have faith in the premise, (as you stated it). Rather, it is that you are insufficiently educated about the subject matter to debate it intelligently.

Well, that's nothing to sweat about. It can be easily solved with some time and effort. Relax. :)

Edit inserted below:

Now, concerning the origin or decision making behind the various religious Councils and theologians an' what-have-you over the past centuries:
It's not a shame to not know everything that can be known about these historical events. After all, there are very few Christians who can boast of being theologians and even less can boast to be historians.
However, it is our requirement to have the express faith that God speaks to His people in this day and hour; whether it be through Scripture or personal experience or other intervention.

We have this confidence that Jesus not only loves us enough to have died and resurrected us to a newness of life in HIm; He also loves us enough to lead us into all truth. "For his Spirit searches out everything and shows us God's deep secrets".


=========================
by ET101 on 2012/6/10 4:15:03
I don't doubt that the word of God - the canon - as we have it today is the word of God. My faith is placed it in.
However. . .I have trouble defending this premise.
=========================

 2012/6/10 9:29Profile
lindi1208
Member



Joined: 2011/3/8
Posts: 171


 Re: Help: That the word of God is indeed the word of God. ..

ET101

Hi brother have you listened or watched Eric Ludy's betrayed by a kiss a thread was posted on here recently in it He vehemently defends the Word of God.

Also 2 Timothy 3 ; 16 says ALL Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;

The key is the word ALL it doesn't say some or other but ALL.
To me any question that says is this really what God says rings loud bells of the enemy because he spoke the same words to Eve when he beguiled her in the garden Gen 3 v 1 " hath God said". I do not want to offend you brother but does the questions is the Word of God indeed the word of God sounds like a flaming dart sent to somehow try to find a way to question the authority of God's word. I know you believe God and trust Him.

Here is the answer to such thoughts or questions when they cross our minds 2 Cor 10 ; 4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)

5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.

Such thoughts as is the word of God really the word of God can cause weaker brothers or sisters to stumble through planting a seed of doubt or curiosity therefore I believe this thought or imagination must be taken captive and made obedient to Christ who is The Word of God!

Love in Christ Jesus


_________________
Lindi

 2012/6/10 9:32Profile





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