SermonIndex Audio Sermons
Image Map
See Opportunities to Serve with SermonIndex
Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : QUESTIONS ON ELI, I SAM. 2:22-25

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 Next Page )
PosterThread
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Scary stuff. That is not taught in churches.



I agree that we need to certainly look to the scriptures more to understand our times. I recently wrote an article along these lines. I entitled it, "Backsliding in the Latter years." For those that might be interested. http://realrevival.blogspot.com/2012/06/backsliding-in-latter-years.html


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2012/6/7 9:24Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3708
Ca.

 Re:

Quote: """NOW, MY NEXT QUESTION IS: Since GOD said he would judge Eli forever and that there would not be any sacrifice for his sin FOREVER, does that mean he went to Hell??"""

Is that not also, " "Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?" Judgment is His, not ours.

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2012/6/7 12:59Profile
Trekker
Member



Joined: 2011/7/29
Posts: 683
northern USA

 Re:

NOW, MY NEXT QUESTION IS: Since GOD said he would judge Eli forever and that there would not be any sacrifice for his sin FOREVER, does that mean he went to Hell?? Anyone have an answer? Am really wondering.

 2012/6/8 0:15Profile
Trekker
Member



Joined: 2011/7/29
Posts: 683
northern USA

 Re:

QUOTE: "God's presence withdrawn signifies judgment delayed. When God's unique presence is near judgment is swift."==ROBERTW





What you said makes total sense, and yet it has been bothering me a great deal...confusing me. For if God withdraws His presence then how can He say (in the NT)
"I will never leave you nor forsake you"?????????????

 2012/6/8 0:24Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5827
NC, USA

 Re:

Quote: "For if God withdraws His presence then how can He say (in the NT) "I will never leave you nor forsake you"?????????????"

There is presence, then there is manifest presence.

The first is a given, the latter is not(but is always available if we seek it).

At least that is how I understand it.


_________________
Todd

 2012/6/8 7:58Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
NOW, MY NEXT QUESTION IS: Since GOD said he would judge Eli forever and that there would not be any sacrifice for his sin FOREVER, does that mean he went to Hell?? Anyone have an answer? Am really wondering.



Here is our text in question:

And therefore I have sworn unto the house of Eli, that the iniquity of Eli's house shall not be purged with sacrifice nor offering for ever. (1 Samuel 3:14)

It is most likely that the office of priesthood is in view and not Eli's individual soul. Given that there was no repentance it was impossible for sacrifice or offering to be effectual in this situation. Behold, to obey is better than to sacrifice. Sacrifice could not purge a perpetual attitude of high-handed rebellion as was found in Eli's sons. Because Eli would not deal with them his whole house was judged. This judgment was fulfilled in 1 Kings 5:27 when Solomon came to power. "So Solomon thrust out Abiathar from being priest unto the LORD; that he might fulfil the word of the LORD, which he spake concerning the house of Eli in Shiloh."


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2012/6/8 9:29Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
QUOTE: "God's presence withdrawn signifies judgment delayed. When God's unique presence is near judgment is swift."==ROBERTW





What you said makes total sense, and yet it has been bothering me a great deal...confusing me. For if God withdraws His presence then how can He say (in the NT)
"I will never leave you nor forsake you"?????????????



There are three ways to look at this, historically, theologically and practically. Historically we know that God's UNIQUE presence left Israel, for example, in Ezekiel chapter 6 and following. We can argue that God is omnipresent or immanent as theological propositions, and this would be true. So it is true that God is in the gambling halls, brothels, and even hell itself. And He is God there, but He is not there in the way that He desires to be.

On a theological level we often have the suggestion that God's presence will never leave no matter what. We have the opposite extreme in other theological camps that suggests that God's presence leaves every single time a person sins. I think it is useless to keep this argument in the theological textbooks and laboratories; in the realm of theory and speculation.

We have this passage in Hebrews 13:5:

[Let your] conversation [be] without covetousness; [and be] content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

This passage is context sensitive. To remove it from context is to create a pretext (meaning you can make it say what you wish). It is a highly emphatic statement that has 5 negatives in the Greek. God is saying I will in no wise utterly forsake you, no I will not. But again, this text has an address. It is written to believers that are suffering persecution and moving on in faith towards God. It has nothing to do with rebels that decide to fall back into perdition. God's promises such as these not only have an address, but they are conditional. Even if conditions are not stated they are implied.

The passage is also paraphrase of the promises made to Joshua and others that God would be with them to lead them as He was with Moses, etc. Judges chapter 2 is a great place to gain insight on how God's promises such as Hebrews 13:5 are in fact conditioned upon our faith and obedience.

On a practical level we know that God's Spirit obviously in not in a person that continues to manifest the works of the flesh. A person may stumble for a time into carnality, but we are not in the flesh but in the Spirit IF so be that the Spirit dwells in us. We are known by our fruits. If a person is as mean as a junkyard dog and treats others with hate and hostility, they cannot be said to have the Holy Spirit no matter what they claim. The Holy Spirit does not yield wormwood (poison). This is how we are known. A lot of people claim to be full of the Holy Ghost, but can't even love their neighbor as themselves. It's a sham.

If a person persists in resisting the Holy Spirit and quenching the Holy Spirit; if they do not consciously seek to be being filled with the Holy Spirit there will come a point that they no longer exemplify evidence of the manifest presence of God. It will reflect in their behavior, particularly in the area of compassion. Stephen is an example of a person that we know with certainty was FULL of the Holy Ghost. How do we know? Scripture says so. How else do we know? He loved to the very end, just like Jesus did.

It is folly to hang on to Hebrews 13:5, resist the Holy Ghost and claim fulness. No man can receive and resist at the same time. So that is the common sense side of it.


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2012/6/8 9:56Profile
Trekker
Member



Joined: 2011/7/29
Posts: 683
northern USA

 Re:

Wow, RobertW, thanks for that explanation, all of it. You really should become a minister/pastor, you know that? What is it you do for a living? If you are not preaching in a church i would be surprised. You explain things pretty well.
It's a very deep study for me.


On the other issue, of Eli and the FOREVER judgment, i guess i am to take that to mean that as long as any of his progeny lives upon the earth. Correct?

 2012/6/9 2:32Profile
Trekker
Member



Joined: 2011/7/29
Posts: 683
northern USA

 Re:

QUOTE: "There is presence, then there is manifest presence.
The first is a given, the latter is not(but is always available if we seek it)."==TMK



Sorry TMK, i have NO idea what you mean.

 2012/6/9 2:36Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
On the other issue, of Eli and the FOREVER judgment, i guess i am to take that to mean that as long as any of his progeny lives upon the earth. Correct?



It's important to know that sometimes God's judgments don't fully take place immediately. In the near term Eli's sons and Eli would die all in a single day. This came about as a result of the Philistines killing the sons and Eli falling over and breaking his neck after he heard the Ark had been taken. During this time Samuel became the judge in Israel and in his older age anointed Saul as king. He was rejected and then David was anointed as king.

When David became king he sought to bring the Ark of the Lord back into the city. He desired to build a 'house' for the Ark, but could not because he was a man of blood. Certainly the functions of the High Priest were very limited during these many decades. During this time Eli's progeny still functioned in some capacity in the priesthood. The last of these men was Abiathar.

Solomon was given the job of building the Temple. It is apparent that God did not want the descendants of Eli involved in the priesthood once the Temple came online. It is my view that they were not trustworthy and God knew that. It was not simply a matter of God judging Eli's grandsons and great grandsons, etc. for the behavior of their parents, etc. They were all more or less unfit for the job and depending on their compentency God used them.

Before Solomon started the Temple project, early on, there was a power struggle between Solomon and his brother Adonijah (David's 4th son). Amnon and Absolom were dead, Daniel (Chileab) is not to be found, so Adonijah figured he ought to be king. The problem is that Solomon was the man in succession to be the king. Guess who Eli's great grandson Abiathar supported? Indeed it was Adonijah. This treasonous act was a capitol offense, however, Solomon showed him mercy by sparing his life but thrusting him out of the priesthood.

1Kings 2:27 So Solomon thrust out Abiathar from being priest unto the LORD; that he might fulfil the word of the LORD, which he spake concerning the house of Eli in Shiloh.

As best as I know that was the end of Eli's house and things passed back into the hands of the descendants of Eleazar.


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2012/6/9 7:40Profile





©2002-2021 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Affiliate Disclosure | Privacy Policy