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Discussion Forum : Revivals And Church History : The Charismatic movement; God's blessing and gifts without Repentance.

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Joined: 2005/6/18
Posts: 1481


dear brothertom, i was reacting to the post after yours . you always seem to write from a fair and pure heart. i had very little problem with your post. i was in an a.g. church in metairie and on the staff(homeless ministry)when the toronto move with rhb came to town and i had to leave and come back to baton rouge. i have seen the craziness in charismania. jesse duplantis was a member of that church in metairie and i knew him and his guarantee that for every dollar given to his ministry a soul would be saved.the next day after he said this he spent about 3500 on an outfit (suit,shirt,tie,shoes) at a friends store....he is now building a house for over a million.nutsjimp

 2012/5/31 11:29Profile

Joined: 2012/5/27
Posts: 274


Hi! EverestoSama
Your summary concerning the misuse/abuse of heavenly gifts is undeniable.
Moreover, it points to an increasing urgency for Christians needing a better scriptural understanding about, for instance, speaking in tongues and related gifts of the Spirit.

You will note that between the list of genealogies in Genesis 10 and that of Shem's descendents in the second half of chapter 11, there is a rather surprisingly story about the building of the Tower of Babel and its confusion of tongues. A famous archaeologist once said the following about the Tower of Babel: "The story in Genesis 11 would not present any difficulties for us if it ended at verse 5". Of course, this was because verses 6-9 can only be understood with knowledge and insight into the Kingdom of Heaven.

The second age of mankind began when the descendants of Noah left the highlands of Armenia, (Mount Ararat), and descended from the East via Persia to the Plain of Shinar. This region became the second land which comprised the origin of the nations. By settling there, the people refused to obey God's instruction to spread across the earth and they began to build a city with a tower, the top of which was said to reach up into 'heaven'.

They met in a city which was to become their religious centre. The Tower of Babel was intended to be the great meeting place where man could satisfy his spiritual longings and work his way up higher into the spiritual world. The tower became a a religious monument and a place of pilgrimage by which man made a name for himself not only on earth but also in heaven.

Archaeologists have discovered the ruins of at least thirty three of these terraced towers in ancient Babylonia. Nearly all these "high temples" had seven storeys. At one point, the king of Babel, Nabopolassar, the father of Nebuchadnezzar, gave orders for the following text (among others) to be recorded in cuneiform writing on clay tablets: "Marduk, the lord, ordered me to rebuild Etemenanki, the multi-storey tower of Babel, which had fallen into ruins before my time, to fasten its foundations in the heart of the underworld and to make it as high as the heaven. I forced all the people of many nations to work on the building of Etemenanki and the exalted dwelling of my lord, Marduk, I built right at the top"

The multi-storey tower was a heavenly ladder; in the language of the Sumerians, Babel (bab-ilu) means "Gate of God". Jacob later also saw a ladder in his dream and called the place where he had slept "gate of heaven" (Genesis 28:17). The narrator in Genesis 11, however, translated the word 'Babel' from the Hebrew word 'balal' which means 'confuse' or 'mix up'. The tower of Babel, therefore, was not a city tower; certainly not a lighthouse tower. It was a tower which we might compare to what we know today as cathedral spires which reach high up into the sky portraying man's search for the spiritual world.

With the Tower of Babel we are introduced to a second instance of the Fall of mankind. In this instance the Fall was caused by occultism by which man prematurely sought to satisfy his deep inner longing to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.

Some might ask the question: Did not God plant a curiosity about eternity in every man? The answer of course, is yes. But God never intended that this need was to be satisfied by through the occult practices found in Babylon. Moreover, it was not yet God's appointed time to address the spiritual development of man. Man was preparing to unveil the mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven, but the way there was not yet open. Consequently, man inadvertently came into contact with evil angels. When man attempted to enter the heavenly places through occult means, he unwittingly descended into the spiritual realm/kingdom of death. It could be said that he laid a foundation of faith "in the heart of the underworld", that is, in the pit.

The world population, which had one tongue and one language, had found a means of communication between earth and heaven through spiritism and, later, through other occult practices. Their religion was soon supported by a wisdom which was not "such as comes from above, but is earthly, unspiritual and devilish", (James 3:15).

While the Bible records that Eve was brought into temptation, the people who built the Tower of Babel were activated by their own irresistible desire to penetrate the dark regions of the unseen world. Afterwards, man sought fellowship with the spirits of dead people and through that paganism an idolatry began taking shape. The people were misled because it was not their dead relatives or friends who began to speak; rather it was the demons. Not surprisingly, the unwise heart of the people of Babel became darkened.

The people of Babylon transferred their vision from the heavenly regions to the earth and gave visible form to this vision. This was counterfeit to a later incident when the Lord gave orders for a tabernacle to be built according to the vision given to Moses from the Kingdom of God.

For instance, the people of Babylon said, "Come, let us make bricks and burn them thoroughly. And they had brick for stone and bitumen for mortar". The brick and bitumen were symbols of the deceitful philosophy which they taught and against which the Apostle Paul so often warned.

Brick and bitumen are materials which are a poor substitute for the gold, diamonds and precious stones which are mentioned for the building of the city of God in Revelation 21:18-21. This portrayed their spiritual vision which was contrary to the truth that Jesus Christ is the foundation through Whom we can learn to understand the mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven.

There were also priests who systematically noted down and classified their knowledge of the heavenly realms and passed this on to the generations to come - the magicians, the enchanters, the Chaldeans and the astrologers, (Daniel 4:7).

The time was to come when our Lord would say to a semi heathen Samaritan woman: "Believe me, he hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. But the hour is coming and now is, when the true worshippers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth, for such the Father seeks to worship Him. God is spirit and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth", John 4:21-24).

It was in Babel that religious man entered the heavenly regions for the first time in history. But it was from 'elsewhere' and not after the plan and purposes of God. So, it's not surprising that the Lord had to search for a faithful obedient man and eventually found what He sought in Abraham.

Abraham lived at the end of the period of Genesis 11, in South Babylonia, in the city of Ur, where there was also an occult Tower which was dedicated to Sin and Ningal. Abraham left this religious center "For he looked forward to the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God!", (Hebrews 11:10), "But as it is, they desire a better country that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God for He has prepared for them a city", (Hebrews 11:16).

God Himself builds the city and Abraham's seed builds the temple, the City of God in the spiritual world, that is the Church. It can be said of this heavenly Jerusalem that Jesus Christ gathers His people together there as a hen gathers her brood under her wings. Therefore, the earthly Babel is therefore in opposition to the plan of God for the salvation and restoration of man.

After the Fall of Man in the Garden of Eden, God barred the entrance to the Kingdom of God. Adam and Eve were driven away from their meeting place with God at the Tree of Life, where they ate and drank at His table in His Kingdom. After this, there was no possibility of a man developing through a process of metamorphosis into a true spiritual person.

Man had now to wait for the coming of Christ Jesus Who would unlock the "narrow gate" of Heaven. He would open the way for many to enter through the preaching of the gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven.

It is good for Christians to know the background to the story of the building of the tower of Babel and the confusion of tongues in the light of the gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven. With the building of the Tower of Babel, the great schism and confusion which had begun in the heavenly places was now able to influence the inhabitants of the earth. Man was conducting an attachment for the first time with the evil spiritual world and with the fallen angels who had origin there.

In Mark 3:26 the Lord said, "If Satan has risen up against himself and is divided, he cannot stand, but is coming to an end'. The evil spirits are united only in their opposition to God and mankind. They bring their discord to everyone with whom they have fellowship and to all who open the door to their inspiration. They are guided by spirits who are now at work in the sons of disobedience.

So, now we also know now why it is that evil people dislike one another. For instance, the example of Herod and Pilate, who were enemies but became friends in one day through their aversion to the Son of Man. While each evil angel has a purpose of its own, the holy angels all cherish the same godly thoughts. Therefore, those who insist to be guided by evil spirits are compelled to admit, "We have turned every one to our own way", (Isaiah 53:6).

The fact that the kingdom of darkness still exists and is so powerful is because Satan rules over his angels with force. He is full of violence, (Ezekiel 28:16). This is also true of the princes of the fallen angels, each of whom has his own area. The same truth applies to their warriors who fight against the city of God and who "March, each on his own way", (Joel 2:7b). It is the same for them as is for an earthly army: the soldiers are forced to march in time and are ordered to perform violent deeds.

The Bible says that in the final war against the beloved city and the camp of the saints and, therefore, against the heavenly Jerusalem and the Church, Gog and Magog will perish in a struggle between themselves. Then every man's sword "Will be against his brother". This can also be compared with the victory of Jehoshaphat over the Moabites and Ammonites who, in their fight against Jerusalem, "All helped to destroy one another", (2 Chron 20:23). When Paul stood before the High Council he made good use of their differences when he called out, "I am on trial because of the hope and resurrection of the dead", (Acts 23:6). Paul knew that this was a bone of contention among them.

At the end of the Millenium, Satan will still be able to mislead people but will no longer be able to use force, for he will have had to relinquish his power and throne to the Beast that comes up from the pit. After the Battle of Armageddon, this devilish power will be thrown into the Lake of Fire, together with the Antichrist.

It then becomes possible for Satan to be bound for a thousand years because he will also have lost the power of death, (Acts 2:14). However, I should hasten to add that when Satan is let loose again, he will still be able to mislead people but he will no longer have the power to control his mutinous troops.

Originally, mankind had only one language and one tongue. For God "Made from one, every nation of men to live on all the face of the earth", (Acts 17:26).

Don't you find it remarkable that the same sort of confusion did not occur in the animal world: dogs bark but do not moo like cows or roar like lions?

The language barrier which came about after the building of the tower of Babel separated the people and now continues to remain a great problem in the preaching of the gospel. However, God created in each person the ability to learn to speak several languages. With much practice and perseverance the natural man can develop this ability to speak another language.

When a person enters the heavenly places this ability to speak another language begins to work spontaneously in him. This is why Paul wrote that he spoke the language of men and angels. He did this when he was in the spirit. However, in the Church he spoke the normal language that everyone knew.

Therefore, speaking in Tongues is something spiritual. It is of no use at all on earth because "who speaks in a Tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit", (ICor 14:2). When we speak in Tongues we are not addressing people but we are letting our voices be heard on high.

It is possible, of course, that a listener recognises the spoken language, just as at Pentecost. After all, a New Covenant Christian does not rise above his earthly constraints by natural methods but by spiritual means - by the Glossolalia which he has at his disposal at any desired moment. Equipped with this gift, he can converse and communicate in the New Jerusalem and can even use it during his activities in the heavenly places.

The spiritual world is a multilingual creation. We know that angels are spiritual beings which were each individually created as fully developed,(Ezekiel 28:13). The high princes among the angels each have their own language territory which is limited by the language which God has given them. In the infinite space of the heavenly places, each group of angels proclaimed in their own tongue the greatness of the Creator.

This is why we read in Job 38:7 about "The morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy". The morning stars or the sons of God are the princes among the angels. They stand before the throne of God, (Job 1:6; 2:1; Luke 1:19). When people become "sons of God", then they are not sons of God on the earth but in heavenly places where they stand before the throne of God and of the Lamb.

 2012/5/31 11:41Profile

 Re: "Am I my brothers keeper?"

"Can God pour out His Spirit into someone in the Roman Catholic church? Most certainly! And shortly after they're going to leave.

What they're not going to do is force the Holy Spirit to bend to the will and tradition of a blasphemous false religion."....EverestoSama also wrote:

"Consider these:"

A Christian, Spirit filled Buddhist.
A Christian, Spirit filled Muslim.
A Christian, Spirit filled Hindu.
A Christian, Spirit filled Satanist.
A Christian, Spirit filled Voodoo practitioner.
A Christian, Spirit filled Mormon.
A Christian, Spirit filled Catholic.

"We wouldn't buy the validity of the first five (and hopefully not the sixth, though times are changing), but the seventh we feel a little more comfortable with, even though their religious establishment is just as lost and deceived as any one of the prior six?"

"Would the Holy Spirit have anything to do with one who decided to follow a mixture of any one of the first six?"

"What makes a mixture of the seventh all of a sudden so acceptable?"

"Is it because they use some of the same words and jargon as we "born agains" do? So do the Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses. Should we turn a blind eye and let them into the club too? I mean after all, they've technically probably got more doctrine in line with us than the Catholics"

"And I agree, God loves the Catholics and desires that they come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. However that doesn't mean that if we want to reach them that we sacrifice truth for the sake of love."

"The two are not somehow mutually exclusive. It's the fact that we love them that we even tell them the truth!"!

"Kind of like if you were a doctor and you didn't want to tell your patient they had bone cancer because they might be turned off from wanting anything to do with you, and in turn getting a reputation as a doctor that "only gives out bad news" no matter if it's just the plain truth. There's a cure, but first one has to be told that they're sick." EverestoSama____________________________________________

I had to bump this; it was to good to be spammed;

Brilliant, even. I am reminded of the scripture, and the admonition of the apostles..[ Who founded, structured, and communicated our faith, by the way,and their passion to warn and protect the body of Christ, so that they WOULD NOT be deceived and fall away to Hell.

Below is the Last Will and Testimony of the great apostle Paul to his beloved Ephesian Church; as to the elders.

Paul Speaking..."For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God."

"Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood."

" For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

!! Therefore watch!, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears!!

And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified."


Thank you Pilgrim777 and ArmKelly; not because you encourage me so much only; but because I bare witness so much for your love of the truth. We see that God Himself sends delusion, not the devil, to those who refuse to repent of the lie and cling to the truth, even though they be slain for it.

"Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

"And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie!

"That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

If you really loved a people, you would not want them in an eternity of torment would you? You would warn them, and persuade them, according to the scripture, wouldn't you?.... that they must repent to the truth and Believe, Embrace it. If in this sense, I am a policeman, then in this I will glory, for I must and do love the lost, in any venue.

If I'm a cop, let me be an ambassador type one like Paul preached above....Day and Night....with a broken heart of tears to feed and protect the lambs.

[ This has turned out to be a really interesting thread; quite profitable in instruction I think. Thank-you all for your insights and opinions.]

 2012/5/31 12:55

Joined: 2010/5/17
Posts: 1175


Thanks BrotherTom. Your kind words humble me. All credit to God if He was able to use anything I wrote.

 2012/5/31 13:59Profile

Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1257


I thank God for the liberty I experience in Christ and the grace to be a partaker of His holiness without which no man shall see the Lord.

I use to major on the negatives but thank God I now focus more on the positives. One can spend all his/her time on criticism of everybody else or he/she can walk in Spirit proclaiming Christ and His glorious good news to deliver people through the blood of His cross to experience abundant life in Jesus Christ.

It is the truth in Jesus that makes people free not the criticism of everybody who has ever done wrong. We can find enough wrong within our own selves and we need to understand that God has not called us to judge everybody but to show mercy to everybody. It is the goodness of God that leadeth man to repentance.

 2012/5/31 14:43Profile

Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 1863


i must confess i feel verry much like tom ,and armkelly ,,

i know over the last few years ,iv been broken to tears and with much trembling over over this contafit revivle ,and the catholic church ,,,but also ,the barren dry denoinations and liberal thelogy in our protestent camp ,,im not saying all of it ,, but in my town you are hard pressed to find spirit filled churchs in either the penacostal carsamatic ,,,or baptise presbyterian type churches ,,,,,i haven found a book of acts typ church in my town ,,,and it hurts and is bringing me to tears right now as i type,,,i will fill the gap with fasting and secect prayer ,,and faith in a move of gods spirit ,,and when i go in to this closet by the grace of god ,im not coming out till he comes and rains on me

 2012/5/31 19:44Profile

Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1257


God Bless you brothagary and may God grant you the desires of your heart!

 2012/5/31 19:52Profile

Joined: 2008/4/1
Posts: 531
America's Heartand


@ Brother Tom-

In your original post you either criticize or condemn 16 distinct people or ministries by my count. Again, at least by my count there were 16 distinct people and ministries you criticized and/or condemned.

You state these accusations and condemnations as if they were actually facts.

In view of that reality I do have a question for you.

Where are your references and documentations of these things? You do not have even a single reference for ANY of your attacks. Where exactly are the references and specific documentation to each of the specific things you allege? There should certainly be one for every single attack you typed.

Common decency demands that if documenting a charge (or in the case of your post at times condemnation) of an individual or ministry that it should at least be referenced. It is also just common decency to do so in order that others can research your accusations and see if the charges you make are true or if you accuse them falsely.

In addition to the idea of common decency it is extremely unethical to launch accusations and condemnations against others without a shred of documentation or reference work sources. Of course references can then be checked to see if your attacks are truthful or themselves false.

 2012/5/31 22:41Profile

Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 1863


thanks rbanks ,,blessing to you brother

 2012/5/31 22:50Profile

Joined: 2012/5/27
Posts: 274


Hi! Solomon101
After availing initial comments to this Thread of Brothertom, I've chosen to largely ignore it since.
But when reading your expressed view, I jus' wanted to hurriedly pop in an' say that I'm much gratified by it.

It reminded me of what a dear Pastor advised me years ago during my early stumbling Christian walk: "Those who feel the need to shout the loudest are usually the ones who are the most empty".
That wise advice has served me well over the passing years since.

In your original post you either criticize or condemn 16 distinct people or ministries by my count. Again, at least by my count there were 16 distinct people and ministries you criticized and/or condemned.


 2012/5/31 22:57Profile

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