SermonIndex Audio Sermons
SermonIndex - Promoting Revival to this Generation
Give To SermonIndex
Discussion Forum : News and Current Events : N.T. Wright asks: Have we gotten heaven all wrong?

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 )
PosterThread









 Re:

I don't understand how something that is the basis of our salvation be forgotten. It has to be forgotten amongst people that don't love our saviour. The very faith is resurrection, the victory that overcometh the world even our faith is connected to the resurrection. If Christians have largely forgotten this fundamental belief, what is the point in faith?

 2012/5/18 10:24
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

A great question. But if you were to ask 8 out of 10 Christians about the coming resurrection of the dead, and our eternal state, most of them would insist that we are going to spend eternity in heaven. If you told them eternity would be spent on earth in resurrected bodies, they would probably be confused. They may give lip service to the idea of the resurrection at best.


_________________
Jimmy H

 2012/5/18 10:52Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 6650
NC, USA

 Re:

Quote:

"I would say Wright's view here is perfectly in keeping with NT, apostolic, and historic Christianity. Wright's trying to make an important emphasis here: We aren't going to spend eternity in some celestial disembodied existence in heaven. God, who is reconciling all things to himself in Christ, even to the redemption of our own bodies, will one day gloriously bodily resurrect us from the dead, to dwell forever in the new earth that he creates for us to enjoy. This is something, Paul reminds us in Romans 8, of which all of creation currently groans for. God is restoring that which was lost in the beginning, and looking to one day call all of the earth blessed. It is a world in which there will be no more curse, and no more death. Weeping and mourning shall flee. Everlasting joy shall come down on our heads. And the whole earth will be filled with the knowledge and the glory of the Lord, just as the prophets said."

I am in agreement. Randy Alcorn wrote a very popular book on heaven a few years back and says very similar things. There is going to be a new earth someday, and we will be on it in our resurrected bodies. That's awesome!


_________________
Todd

 2012/5/18 10:58Profile
enid
Member



Joined: 2006/5/22
Posts: 2680
Nottingham, England

 Re:


Anyone interested in what scripture has to say?

 2012/5/18 11:07Profile
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

1 Corinthians spells out clearly the doctrine of a bodily resurrection. It doesn't get more clear than that.


_________________
Jimmy H

 2012/5/18 11:33Profile
rbanks
Member



Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1330


 Re:

Yes brethren there is going to be a bodily resurrection but you are missing the whole point of what Greg is trying to convey.

When I first saw this that Greg posted I thought that “Wright” was going away from spiritual interpretation toward an earthly interpretation and when Christian brought out the interview then there is no doubt that he has been mislead and sad to say will lead others astray.

Brethren I believe an earlier article of what Greg posted does not need to be overlooked because of the truth people need to really see, that Mr. Wright has completely left out and has failed to see, so I’m going to list it here:

Quote-
The problems with all these new definitions though they are true "in part" (which makes them more subtle) is that they focus on and work towards what is earthly. The goal is to restore man on this earth and his earthly things. It is the preservation of this flesh, this world system, this creation. It is the trying to save things temporal, the things we can see.

But the problem is that the biblical witness is 100% not inline with this type of thinking. The teaching is mankind is depraved and without hope. And even after the regeneration experience of New Birth that his "flesh" is still active and sinful and the body cannot be redeemed in this earth. The bible applauds faith "things unseen" but says that everything seen will be destroyed so we are not to set our hearts on these things. It says that riches of this earth are bad and the heavenly riches are good. And the entire earth will be destroyed by fire. And then there will be a "new heavens and a new earth".

So for a doctrine that tries to preserve this earth, teach this earth and mankind is not that bad and that Jesus wants to help restore all this earth and people on this earth is wrong. Jesus is saving people "out of" this world to be brought to His heavenly kingdom.

As I was reading this article and commenting about it to my wife she was reading this passage that really summarizes the bible viewpoint of this:

"For, as I have often told you before and now say again even with tears, many live as enemies of the cross of Christ. Their destiny is destruction, their god is their stomach, and their glory is in their shame. Their mind is on earthly things. But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ." (Philippians 3:18-20)


This is not to speak evil in anyway of NT wright but to just respond to a growing trend of theology that I see going very much away from the biblical clear witness that the apostles carried.
-quote


Thank you Greg for this understanding, because I believe it is from the Lord. Almost 6 years ago God showed me something through an experience of His presence that was so awesome that scriptures just came to my mind from the spirit of what Paul was saying in 2 Thess chapters 1&2.

2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.



I believe God showed me that many in the known church world will follow the anti-christ because they will be deceived because they are still of the flesh, worldly, and materialistic. They have been deceived by the lie of the ecumenical movement that is fleshly driven working through man’s self esteem and glorifies man instead of our glorious Lord Jesus Christ. It seems now that Mr. Wright has bought into this lie and many more will not be heeding the warnings of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Thessalonians 1:4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

1 Peter 2:11 Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul;
12 Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.

Hebrews 11:12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.
13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

Hebrews 11:27 By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.

Hebrews 13:14 For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.

Genesis 15:13 And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;

Acts 7:5 And he gave him none inheritance in it, no, not so much as to set his foot on: yet he promised that he would give it to him for a possession, and to his seed after him, when as yet he had no child.

1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
1Pe 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
1Pe 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
1Pe 1:6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:
1Pe 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
1Pe 1:8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
1Pe 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

Those who are truly saved have come out of this world and are seated in heavenly places in Christ Jesus. We are in the world but not of the world. We have an inheritance that is incorruptible, undefiled and cannot fade away and is also reserved in heaven for us who are kept by the power of God unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Blessings…from brother rbanks

 2012/5/18 12:17Profile
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Well, I definitely take issue with Wright over the idea that the doctrine of the resurrection should put us into a "preservation" mindset when it comes to the things of this world. Undoubtedly, this world is passing away and will be entirely destroyed. It will be replaced with another one altogether.

Although, it should be noted that some of the "practical" ramifications of living resurrected lives in the here and now, in light of the age that has been inagurated with Christ's victory over death, will be of positive benefit to the temporary order we are a part of. In demonstrating the reality of the kingdom of God, and giving us a taste of what is to come, Christ did things like heal the sick and raise the dead. In raising a couple people from the dead, Jesus definitely preserved their earthly bodies a few more years! Or, in saving people from their sin, the benefits of godly living will definitely be of practical value, not only in your life, but the lives of others. Iindeed, had the apostle Paul not been saved, many other people may have died.

But, the temporary benefits that I am speaking of here should not be understood in some sort of post-millenial sense. And I haven't read enough of Wright to know if he is pre or post millenial in his theology. I suspect he is probably post/a-millenial. Which would perhaps explain his notion of "preservation" he talks about.

But regardless, the heavens and earth are passing away. And our present bodies will vanish with them. But when Christ comes again, we shall come to life again, with new bodies, fit to live forever and ever in the new world that He is creating.


_________________
Jimmy H

 2012/5/18 12:29Profile
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

For a more spiritual application of the theology of the resurrection, I would encourage people who like some of what Wright says to personally listen to Art Katz. Brother Art had much to say on the doctrine of the resurrection, and the practical application of it in the life of a saint of God. I don't think I've heard anybody teach more clearly and Biblically on the subject than Katz.


_________________
Jimmy H

 2012/5/18 12:37Profile
Mangan
Member



Joined: 2007/4/19
Posts: 161
Sweden (Northern Europe)

 Re:

I consider Dr Wright as a Christian Brother indeed! But he is weak on certain areas such as eschatology i.e. second comming of Christ. Apart from that I think we can benefit from a lot of his writing on the subject of the historical Jesus. Regarding his books: eat the theological meat and throw a way the unscriptual bones.

Sincerely Magnus Nordlund, Sweden


_________________
Magnus Nordlund

 2012/5/18 12:55Profile





©2002-2024 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Revival to this Generation.
Privacy Policy