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Discussion Forum : Miracles that follow the plow : A reluctant saviour?

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roadsign
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Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


 Re:

Quote:
It suggests that God is reluctant to save and will only begrudgingly save when one has grovelled enough before him, which is contrary to the bible.



So often a marvelous truth gets pushed over the edge into falsehood. And the glorious liberating truth becomes eclipsed by imprisoning assumptions. That may be the problem here.

Personally I am not troubled over proof of my salvation. But I do often find myself feeling like I’m barely there. I get depressed over how bad I am or did, and how I can never measure up. When God does finally break through my dark despondent cloud here is what he always consistently points out to me: “You have been thinking about YOURSELF and not looking to me.” That’s the problem – every time.

As long as you and I obsess over ourselves, then our eyes are in the wrong place. We are not resting in HIS salvation but leaning on ourselves. It’s a form of unbelief is it not? So then - in faith we are free to take our eyes off of our own insufficiencies - according to whatever criteria we use – like the “failure” to grovel enough. (The devil can get us to grovel too) Keep our eye on Jesus – the sufficiency of his gift of salvation. Make it a goal to gain understanding through his Spirit – and to grasp and know his love more and more deeply. And as our heart grows softer towards him we will find ourselves weeping and grieving over human sin. There is no need to force it!

Meanwhile, we can trust that his light is able to shine through mortal clay vessels like ourselves. It's the cracks (of all things!) that let the light through.

“Lord I believe. Help me in my unbelief!

Diane


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Diane

 2012/5/16 7:40Profile
MaryJane
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Joined: 2006/7/31
Posts: 3057


 Re:

roadsign you wrote:“You have been thinking about YOURSELF and not looking to me.” That’s the problem – every time.

As long as you and I obsess over ourselves then our eyes are in the wrong place. We are not resting in HIS salvation but leaning on ourselves. It’s a form of unbelief is it not?
___________

I have learned this very important truth as well. Thank you for your post.

God bless
maryjane

 2012/5/16 7:45Profile
roadsign
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Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


 Re:

Quote:
I have learned this very important truth as well.

Yes, there's a fine line between holy "grovelling" and unholy "grovelling".


Diane


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Diane

 2012/5/16 7:54Profile
MaryJane
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Joined: 2006/7/31
Posts: 3057


 Re:

by roadsign on 2012/5/16 1:54:53

Quote:
I have learned this very important truth as well.

Yes, there's a fine line between holy "grovelling" and unholy "grovelling".


Diane

___________

Again I have seen this same truth.
I have come to realize that one can grieve over their sin in such a way that does nothing but draw attention to self and can actually feed the attitude of "look at me, look at how well I repent" instead of truly bringing one to a place of understanding their sin has crucified CHRIST and is a stumbling block in their walk with HIM.

Again thank you for sharing, such good seeds there in so few words! :)

God bless
mj

 2012/5/16 8:13Profile
roadsign
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Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


 Re:

Quote:
"look at me, look at how well I repent"


Mary Jane, I think this is a good point. People naturally want to feel accepted by the group. Let’s admit, nothing can be more shaming and rejecting than being told you are not “one of us”, because you are not “right” with God! So I think it’s natural to do whatever the group expects – whatever that denominational branch or the leader expects.

But then the coveted behaviors may promote falsehood - hypocrisy. I think that’s how appropriate legitimate practices turn bad: They become enshrined.

I agree with you. It’s people fear at the core, and I think preachers should avoid exploiting that.

I appreciate how David Wilkerson respected the importance of truthfulness over and above conformity. In his sermons I hear him leaving room for the Spirit to work in his timing and in his way. Maybe that’s why I appreciate his preaching so much.


Diane



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Diane

 2012/5/16 9:59Profile
twayneb
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Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2007
Joplin, Missouri

 Re: A reluctant saviour?

Butters:

The early Methodists held this view. I know that when I was born again, I knew it. There was a definite witness of the Holy Spirit. The scriptural defense of the doctrine would be Romans 8:16

(15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.)

I am not sure one could be born again (have their spirit regenerated) and not have some knowledge that it happened. But I think sometimes we look for some kind of emotional release to give us that knowledge. Sometimes there are things that I am assured of that are not accompanied by a "feeling". It is a witness in the spirit, not in the flesh (mind, will, emotions).

I do think that often those who struggle for a long time with this are looking for something emotional, something of the flesh, to tell them that a transaction has occurred in the spiritual realm. That may not happen. It is a witness in the spirit.

Salvation is by grace through faith. It is received, not earned or "prayed down". But Jesus also says that if any man would come after Him he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow Christ. Paul teaches us in Romans 6 that we are crucified with Christ and die to our own life. This, I believe, is an important part of salvation that we cannot omit. Salvation is free in that we cannot earn it but must receive it as a gift, but it is not free in the sense that it does not cost us anything. It will cost you absolutely everything.

I believe that there are many who have repeated a sinner's prayer who have never been born again. The lack of fruit unto repentance would attest to this. In this sense you might say that the teaching you refer to is reactionary toward the trend of having large numbers of people repeat a prayer and then telling them that by simply saying the words they are now born again. Although some are truly born again in that way, I believe many are not.

So I guess I would say that thinking that one needs to cry out until there is an emotional release is wrong thinking, I do know form Romans that God will give assurance of salvation through a witness of the spirit. I do think that when we come to God we need to "do business" so to speak. Not that we are earning anything, but we are receiving that which we have been given. When scripture says, "believe in the Lord Jesus Christ", it does not mean a simple mental ascent to the fact that He lived, died, rose, and payed a price. It is trusting in that atoning sacrifice and receiving forgiveness. This involves receiving Him as Lord and Savior. It is believing that when I repent of my sins, His forgiveness is mine and my spirit is reborn. I think it goes a little bit deeper than mere acknowledgement.

Anyhow, that's my take.



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Travis

 2012/5/16 11:03Profile









 Re:

Thank you for all the thoughtful responses.

In addition, I notice some of the recent George Whitefield sermons that were posted in the articles and sermons section hint on the kind of view I'm mentioning.

The main problem with this kind of struggle is that it is very difficult to go and 'get on' with the Christian life if you're still wondering if you're saved or not. I have on more than a few occasions almost felt bullied out of prayer - you begin praying but are automatically bombarded with thoughts like "you're probably not saved so what's the point?".

I have not grown up and lived in a Christian environment where "easy belivism" is the major problem. At least, from a very young age I became aware that being a Christian is a total life commitment. If I were to receive greater assurance I know that it would only increase my love and commitment to Jesus - not cause licentiousness.

I don't want to question or criticize the preaching of men who sharply counter nominalism - it is probably what they've been called to do. However, I would say that I have often been wounded (and not the 'good' sort of wounding) and severely discouraged by their words.

 2012/5/16 11:53
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2007
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Butters: Having the assurance that you have been born again does not insulate you against the enemies attacks He will undoubtedly come against you with fears, doubts, etc. This is where faith based on the word of God is important. I know that I have been born again. The enemy comes at me with the lie, "you have not been born again." What do I do? I stand strong in the authority of the word of God and use that word to cut his lies to pieces. I pull out the word and say, "The word says this about my salvation..., and I fight him with the word of God. I may wake up one day and in the emotional realm I am battling. I do not "feel" saved. But I know I have been born again and I use the word of God to realign my emotions.


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Travis

 2012/5/16 13:32Profile
brothagary
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Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 1865


 Re:

but dont be fooled into thinking that one can be born from above ,,recieve a new heart ,experance the peace that passes alll understanding ,and the joy unspeakable ,,with our the emotions being moved some what ,,god will soften the heart and you will experance bodly afections which sture the emotions

and repentence is decribed by james

cleanse your hands you sinners
and purifie your hearts you double minded
be aflicted and morn and weep
let you laughter be turned in to morning
and joy into dejection
humble you self in the sight of the lord ,and he will lift you up

james didnt say to the sinner , just hold on to your promises

true repentance will contain abroken spirit

have you known a broken spirit

this will also effect the emotions


dont be misled ,into a false chep conversion

it not worth it




blessings

 2012/5/16 15:33Profile









 Re: A reluctant saviour?

I wonder how many that have been saved, have sought The LORD for the Baptism in The Holy Spirit.

Brother Travis does well with this teaching on the baptism.

Meant to say also, that Corrie Ten Boom put the baptism in her list of our "Needs", right along with knowing The Word and prayer.



 2012/5/16 18:23





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