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pilgrim777
Member



Joined: 2011/9/30
Posts: 1211


 A Christian's Attitude Towards War

There was a discussion at this link:

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=44472&forum=36

It started out about God not meeting all of our needs. One of the "Rabbit Trails" I suppose was mine and it was regarding WAR and the Christian's attitude towards it. So, I thought I would rescue the original OP and start a new thread that I hope is instructive to all those that have questions concerning this topic.

Old_Joe's last post to me and my response to him.

By the way, I encourage Jimdiedtosin and Jeffmar (and anyone else) to copy their last posts to this thread, too.

Quote:
OK Pilgrim, and I appreciate your stance and the reasons for it. Don't forget that honourable men died to allow you to make that stance.



Joe, the Lord tells me to "honor all men" (1 Pet 2:17), period!

And I certainly don't denigrate any man's sacrifice. But the sacrifice that means more to me is Jesus Christ's. I don't owe anything to any man, but I do owe everything to the Lord. I am not a debtor of any man.

Quote:
Had they not done so you could just as well been goose-stepping as objecting for conscience sake.



I suppose that is the prevailing human wisdom that is always brought up, but we don't really know what would have happened, do we Joe?

Quote:
Numbers 32:6 And Moses said unto the children of Gad and to the children of Reuben, Shall your brethren go to war, and shall ye sit here?



Joe, I could quote a scripture that is directly the opposite of that one. Back then, God was trying to preserve a nation in order to bring forth the Messiah. All nations surrounding Israel were enraged and whipped up by Satan to wipe out Israel. Today, the Messiah has come and the weapons of our warfare are no longer carnal.

Quote:
No work that needs to be done either to preserve or restore civil order is beneath the Christian. Up to and including the administration of the death penalty. Normally objectors to war are in opposition to the death penalty as well, so our difference will actually lie in that area.



One thing I guess you don't realize is that I am not a pacifist and either was Jesus. Jesus taught non-resistance, not pacifism. I have no problem respecting civil authorities. I am not anti-war or anti-gun or anti-death penalty like the pacifists are. They express their beliefs by protests, sit-ins, work stoppages, etc. Jesus did not teach that. I own firearms and hunt, I just don't hunt men. I have no problem whatsoever with the civil authorities that were placed their by God. I don't like war, but I know why wars are fought.

The various causes of "war" are selfish, covetous, greedy desire for gain, defensive fear of injury or loss, pursuit of glory, reputation, pride, ambition, desire for power, dominion, supremacy, passions of hatred, bigotry, revenge, extermination, and religious zeal, ideological quests.

Quote:
BTW if in war I shot another believer and he shot me at the same time, we would meet shortly thereafter and rejoice that each were delivered from this place to the next. The Christian doesn't lose by dying, he wins! HOWEVER the unbeliever when faced with his own mortality must decide as Ribbentrop and several others did whether they want to continue in that state or be saved.



"The Christian doesn't lose by dying."

That is true Joe and that is my point. But the how are you so sure the Christian doesn't lose by killing?

Your statement reminds me of the Albigensian Crusade and a statement that has become quite famous.

In 1209, during the "Albigensian Crusade" against the Cathar heresy in Southern France, the forces of Orthodox Catholicism had been besieging the city of Beziers, defended by the Cathar heretics, for some time. Finally they breached the walls of the city and prepared to storm it. The commander of the crusade, Simon de Montfort, Earl of Leicester, pointed out that not everybody in the city was a heretic, some of them wer good Catholics, so how should they treat the inhabitants when they captured the city? A monk who was actually present at the siege recorded the answer of the Papal Legate to the Crusaders, Arnaud-Amaury, the Abbot of Citeaux, as "Neca eos omnes. Deus suos agnoscet." ("Kill them all. God will know his own." ) So the Crusaders followed his advice and killed everybody they could find in Beziers.

"Kill them all, let God sort them out"!

That is a philosophy that I don't think is taught in the NT. It comes from Rome.

Pilgrim

 2012/4/27 17:13Profile









 Re: A Christian's Attitude Towards War

"That is a philosophy that I don't think is taught in the NT. It comes from Rome."

From rome, to the reformers, to Hitlers christian soldiers to americas christian soldiers. That is the bloodline.

 2012/4/27 17:24
pilgrim777
Member



Joined: 2011/9/30
Posts: 1211


 Re:

That is right, Jim. It is perpetuated as being "holy".

Pilgrim

 2012/4/27 17:28Profile









 Re: A Christian's Attitude Towards War

Not sure how to carry over my posts to other thread. Can you? Would you mind? You have my blessing!! :-)

 2012/4/27 17:42
hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4994
Sweden

 Re:

there are many threads in the archives on this topic, one that has much to ponder is this one https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=15338&forum=35&9


_________________
CHRISTIAN

 2012/4/27 17:54Profile









 Re:

I liken this to the "Christians" in the south during slavery who were prejudice (in a certain degree - not a perfect analogy, so PLEASE save the criticism and don't jump to the topic) in a way. It was so accepted, so discussed as natural, passed down generation to generation, etc. and no one (or very few) questioned it. Later, generations ask "How did everyone not challenge this error in thinking in the church based on the scriptures?"
Many justified with scriptures misunderstood out of contemporary context about "servants/masters" in Ephedians, etc. Many never thought much of "the way it has always been and was taught to them", but there were believers listening to the Lord, comparing this to what they knew of God's Word, & knew it was wrong. It's not an exact perfect parallel (no analogy ever is), but you get my point. I'm not "anti-military" or anti-death penalty, for God sets up these institutions to deter evildoers and have authority. I will submit to that authority (unless they ask me to deny my Lord/His Word), but see no way God calls His children to join those wars. There is another Kingdom, another war, & other methods by which we fight - spiritually for Him!!

 2012/4/27 17:56









 Re:

"there are many threads in the archives on this topic, one that has much to ponder is this one "

Brother Christian, has it ever been suggested to make a collection of previous threads by topic - such as this one? Either to be searchable like the audio sermons by topic, or just where every post in the "War" thread is a link to a previous thread. There is truly a great wealth of info buried away behind all the chaff by brethren such as brother fin who shared so much before going home..

PS - I would volunteer to help if needed. I would rather be busy about that then posting on the forum so much to be honest.

God bless you Christian -Jim

 2012/4/27 18:00
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Jesus died and rose again so that He could teach the nations to war no more.


_________________
Jimmy H

 2012/4/27 18:45Profile
pilgrim777
Member



Joined: 2011/9/30
Posts: 1211


 Re:

Thanks Christian,

I will take a look at that link. I agree that all the threads need to be categorized. Anyway, would like to continue this conversation if the moderators don't mind.

Pilgrim

 2012/4/27 18:56Profile
pilgrim777
Member



Joined: 2011/9/30
Posts: 1211


 Re:

Just to catch everyone, I have brought over some responses from the other thread.

From JeffMar:

If I have any freedom, it's because God Soveriegnly elected to grant it to me (&/or any country). If its removed, then God decided to remove it for His reasons. Israel forgot that repeatedly and suffered greatly for it over and over. We are doing the same now in America and approaching the same type day of reckoning under God's Soveriegnty. America didn't/doesn't grant me my freedom. God has! Even the Declaration of Independence states that!!!

"God raises up one nation & puts down another". The "PROUD (show me where the word pride/proud is used 1 time in all scripture in a positive context) to be an American" crowd of "American Patriotic Nationalists" has forgotten. I'm thankful to be wherever the Lord has me for His purposes. God moved me out of Texas (where everyone is very proud to be a Texan), and he can move me to another country tomorrow if He wants to, for His plan/purposes if He wants to!
He has made it clear I'm not going anywhere from where I am now to carry out His will for my life. See, I'm not a citizen of this world anyway, nor are any of us called to be - were called to be "citizens of another world", "sojourners in a strange land just passing through". You wanta give your life for a "just war" cause? Be spiritual then in your understanding & go suffer and preach in an unreached restricted nation. If it cost you your life as a martyr (at the hands of unbelievers, not believers you were trying to kill), so be it. Now you REALLY died for what God would consider a "just war". That's what matters to me, not how some Catholic priests/bishops define "just war". Those guys burnt William Tyndale at the stake for trying to give people Gods Word for themselves!!! Who made them the experts?!?!?


From jimdied2sin:

" IF this must be done, the Christian cannot be above the duty because he thinks he will get his hands dirty. His hands are already dirty when he participates in the freedoms purchased by the blood of another. Because you don't fire the gun it doesn't make you any less culpable in war if you live off the spoils.
"

This is a devils lie from hell oldJoe. True beleivers freedom is purchased by the blood of Bible Jesus, not the soliders of american jesus. So thankful Bible Jesus saved me from idolatry and devotion to american jesus. -Jim


From jimdied2sin:
Re:
"Quite obviously God does NOT meet all our needs"

This thread started out with a lie straight from the pits of hell and has only gone down hill from there. Is it not written:

Luke 11:8 I tell you, though he will not get up and give him anything because he is his friend, yet because of his impudence he will rise and give him whatever he needs. And I tell you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened.

Phillipans 4:19 And my God will supply every need of yours according to his riches in glory in Christ Jesus. To our God and Father be glory forever and ever. Amen.


From Old_Joe:

Re:
OK Pilgrim, and I appreciate your stance and the reasons for it. Don't forget that honourable men died to allow you to make that stance. Had they not done so you could just as well been goose-stepping as objecting for conscience sake.

Numbers 32:6 And Moses said unto the children of Gad and to the children of Reuben, Shall your brethren go to war, and shall ye sit here?

No work that needs to be done either to preserve or restore civil order is beneath the Christian. Up to and including the administration of the death penalty. Normally objectors to war are in opposition to the death penalty as well, so our difference will actually lie in that area.

BTW if in war I shot another believer and he shot me at the same time, we would meet shortly thereafter and rejoice that each were delivered from this place to the next. The Christian doesn't lose by dying, he wins! HOWEVER the unbeliever when faced with his own mortality must decide as RIbbentrop and several others did whether they want to continue in that state or be saved.


From jeffmar:
Re:
The Pld Testament is about the old covenant. It has types and shadows and principles pointing to the new, but represents NATURAL shadows that were fulfilled in SPIRITUAL realities/fulfillments in the new. Murdering others is looking at scriptures through natural eyes. You need the Spirit to discern the Word of God (I Corinthians 2:14).
The things that happened to Israel were given to us as types, shadows and examples (analagies) for our benefit (I Corinthians 10:6). So, they warred against physical enemies and were called to kill them all off completely (as an OT guy, I'm sure you know the stories of Agag, Saul, Phineas, etc.), but that was types and shadows of the war New Covenant believers filled with the Holy Spirit are to fight.
Now, we are to understand "For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war as the flesh does, for the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty in the pulling down of strongholds, for we war not against flesh and blood, but principalities, powers of darkness and wickedness in high places" (I Corinthians 10:3-4). If you don't realize that now, you'll be trying to "call down fire from heaven to destroy men" like the sons of thunder who Jesus rebuked. Jesus said, " you don't know what spirit you are of!" (Luke 9:55).

Go read Hebrews 11. Did those in the hall of faith fight or surrender to the Lord & severe persecution (into death) in humility, faith, & fearlessness? You are thinking through eyes of scripture BEFORE Christ came and the Holy Spirit was poured out and available to lead, guide, and direct believers into all truth! I really think You should fast, pray, ask the Lord to fill you with the Holy Spirit and believe He will cause "He is a rewarded of those that diligently seek Him" (Hebrews 11:6).

I mean you don't look At all the OT like that do you? Do you have a harem of wives and concubines like David? Do you sacrifice animals on the altar in Jerusalem? Have you stoned anyone lately (physically)? Do you refuse to ever eat pork or shellfish? No. Those are types and shadows. God lead Israel in a physical desert to test them. He leads us through Spiritual ones. God had them refrain from unclean physical meat, we are to refrain from unclean spiritual food (wordly tv, music, etc). God had them sacrifice lambs and get atonement from a yearly high priest entering the Holy of Holies. Now the Lamb of God was slain once for all for us and the veil is rent for us to go into the Holy of Holies (His presence) whenever. He had Israel kill off its physical enemies with physical swords. We are to slay the enemies of our spiritual souls with the sword of the spirit, which is the Word of God (Ephesians 6). Think/pray about it. Pray for the gift of the Holy Spirit. He will lead you into all truth!! Bless you my friend!

Ps. Just a misnomer, I have a wife, 5 kids, & have been in probably 200 fights before salvation. I have fought on the street, in bars, in the ring, etc. I used to be a tough guy, violent, have scars from tire tools to the head, brass knuckles to my ear, etc. I'm not anti-violent cause I'm "scared". I know many military types assume that. I have bullets stored for the future for elk, deer, etc bro, not people! God gives you love to surrender to the cross for His Glory. Until we understand this, we have not embraced the cross He said we must embrace and deny ourselves if we are to even be His disciple. That's real. Look it up in Jesus' words and pray God reveal truth to you on the subject!! Never reach a people for Christ when you are killing them.


From pilgrim777

Joe, I will actually share some OT scriptures on War.

But, we need to take a look at the New Covenant and the New Man and Jesus Christ.

I can take the OT and justify about anything. Anyway, I think it will be a good study. I don't want it to be a litmus test of who is a brother or who is not. You will see that the view of war has changed through the centuries with the Church.

Many of early church fathers indicated that Christians should not participate in war and there is no record of Christians participating in military prior to 174 A.D. Until 323 A.D. almost all Christian literature repudiates involvement in military service and war. Some military service was allowed for non-combative roles. And I thought this was interesting that some soldiers were excluded from participation in the Lord's Supper until they had confessed of their sin of shedding blood.

But we also see some acceptance of involvement in war as Tertullian (197 A.D.) reported many Christians in the Roman army and Clement of Alexandria (150-215 A.D.) indicated a soldier should "abide in that calling wherein he was called" (I Cor. 7:24).

I abided in my calling when I was in the military. I was saved in the military but then respectfully refused to carry a gun. I did not know what would happen when I refused but felt led in this way. Rather than punish me, my commanding officer made me his personal chauffeur. I trusted God and He protected me. on the other hand, another soldier I led to the Lord, had the conviction shortly after he was saved to leave the military on conscientious objector grounds. I had no problem with this at all. I felt led to finish my tour. I thought it was a great mission field and had the grace to stay. My friend John, felt he had to leave. I know there is great liberty in the Lord and we each have our relationship with Him.

My struggle is whether there this great liberty in the Lord that includes carrying arms and killing others (who may even be born-again Christians).

Continuiing on, after Constantine (323 A.D.) objection to involvement in war declined. Ambrose (339-397) said that "one who does not defend another from injury is as much at fault as the perpetrator." Augustine(354-430) said "A war can be just when appointed by God, because it repulses wanton attack and seeks restoration of peace".

And then we have Thomas Aquinas (1224-1274) stipulating that there are 3 criteria for just war: 1) waged by legitimate governmental authority, 2) against an enemy who deserves punishment for wrongdoing and 3) with the motivation that good should prevail and evil be removed.

So, we will begin with the history of the church. There have always been two sides and it is an interesting study. In the end, a believer has to come to his own conviction and I understand this. But, there is nothing wrong with sharing what you believe as you see it from scriptures. I look forward to seeing what your view from the scriptures is. I hope it is a peaceful and reasonable discussion that causes both sides to reflect.

I look forward to the conversation.

Pilgrim


_________________
Galations 2:20
I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.

"In essentials unity, In non-essentials liberty, In all things LOVE."



From Miccah
Re:
I will not pick up the sword. I don't remember Jesus picking up the sword. In fact, I remember reading about Him not responding to those who were killing Him, besides praying for them and asking Father to forgive them, for they know not what they do...

When He comes back, I know that He will have a two-edged sword, but something about it makes me think that it will not be made out of steal.



 2012/4/27 19:37Profile





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