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STAUROS56
Member



Joined: 2003/8/30
Posts: 1


 Re: Trinity

Praise the Lord Jesus!

It is rather sad that our trinity friends have so much animosity against their Oneness brethren and all because they cannot use any real scriptural evidence to suuport their theory. They take for truth that there is a trinity of persons in the Godhead even though the Bible clearly states that there is only one.
Deut. 6:4 Eph 4:4-6 and many other texts. From the beginning of the creation there has been and only ever will be One God, as you may have noticed I am an "Apostolic Oneness Jesus Name" believer.
Being once and for many years an Assembly of God Pastor, trained in the trinitarian Bible Colleges and preached and taught this error.
I have tried in vain many times to ask Theology professors who had quite marvelous academic credentials to explain the trinity and they always came back to the same answer." Just believe it brother don't try to understand it"
Not a good enough answer!
The Bible has the answers and if you don't mind brethren, before you condemn me to the pit for my beliefs as the Catholic church did to so many, both physically and according to them spiirtually, The Lord has saved my soul, I am a born again, blood washed, spirit filled believer, fully repented, baptised in Jesus name for the remission of sins and filled with the Holy Spirit with speaking in an unknown tongue as the Spirit gave me utterance.
How dare you bring judgement on a child of God. Do you sit that high that you can judge all men?
I thought that only the Lord could do that, oh thats right Jesus is the only one who can do that.
Guess what, I preach and pastor in an Assembly of God Church here in Australia, thats right, a Oneness Preacher in a trinity church and you know what brethren even though I preach and teach the truth, I don't try to place barriers up, and the anointing of God comes down and people give their hearts to Jesus and repent they from their sins.
WOW can they really be saved?
Yes and it is not by the trinity or by the Oneness but by the grace and mercy of God through the Blood of His son Jesus.
Stop trying to do the devils work and start doing the Lord's, you spend so much of your energy ranting about the differences that you are of no earthly or heavenly good.
You know what God saved me by grace and that grace I want others to find, so I share it around as much as I can in God's will, why don't we all stop the nonsense and get moving in the right direction - THAT happens to be GODS!

With all my Christian ( There I said,I AM a CHRISTIAN)
Love in Christ Jesus to all my Trinitarian and Binatarian Brothers and Sisters.

PS I Hope you don't take to much offense at my short note. UNITY LOVE PEACE JESUS to you all.

Pastor David J Ware

Quote:

 2003/10/5 8:08Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

Thanks Pastor Dave,
While I agree with the essence of your reply and attempt to hold to the thought of: "In essentials unity, non-essentials liberty and all things charity"...I still have some questions.

First, what exactely is the "Oneness" belief?
Where does it differ from a "Trinitarian" belief according to your point of view?

Second, I don't believe that

Quote:
How dare you bring judgement on a child of God. Do you sit that high that you can judge all men?
I thought that only the Lord could do that, oh thats right Jesus is the only one who can do that.

anyone here is bringing that kind of accusation, why would you say that?

Quote:
Being once and for many years an Assembly of God Pastor, trained in the trinitarian Bible Colleges and preached and taught this error.


and
Quote:
Stop trying to do the devils work and start doing the Lord's, you spend so much of your energy ranting about the differences that you are of no earthly or heavenly good.


Isn't this a contradiction?

I hope you also realize that I am not attempting to provoke here, just clarify,

Lastly, one of the questions that I have always had in regards to this whole subject is;

If God is one (and I do believe He is) and nothing could be taken away from Him in any sense with out reducing His totality, thus making Him less than Himself and therefore not God. Does it not follow that Jesus and the Holy Spirit also must share equality with the Father in all totality?
Is this not the essence of this whole thing?

Mike


_________________
Mike Balog

 2003/10/5 11:21Profile
jeremyhulsey
Member



Joined: 2003/4/18
Posts: 777


 Re:

This debate has been well fleshed out in more than one part of this forum; so to save myself some time in typing here are some links that will take you to all the discussions:
[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=242&forum=36&26]Trinity and Hebrew grammar[/url]
[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=365&forum=36&3]Christ was only God inside the flesh?[/url]

The Bible clearly states that there is only one God. But it is also clear in the relationship of the Godhead being existant in three distinct persons.

Deut. 6:4 "Hear O Israel, the LORD our God, the lord is one." That verse, *in no way*, dispells the trinity. The words for God in this verse-one is singular, and one is plural-can imply a plurality in the Godhead. NOT a plurality of gods, but a plurality in God that is totally united. I won't get into "plurality of majesty". I already discussed that in another debate.

"Eph 4:4-6 and many other texts."

Ephesians 1:2,3 "Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Blessed be the God and Father *of* our Lord Jesus Christ...

Yes there is only one God, and Ephesians speaks of The Father, and of Jesus Christ as two distinct individuals. Now either one is God and one isn't, or both are God.

One argument given against the Trinity is that it is not explicitly taught in the scriptures. Yet you apparently believe in the initial physical evidence of the baptism into the Spirit, however, you cannot give me one shred of evidence at any one point in the scriptures where the initial physical evidence is explicitly taught. Yet you seem to believe in that. It is simply implied by the pattern laid down in the book of Acts. The same is true of the Trinity but it is implied so much more in the scriptures as to not be worth comparing.(I am Assembly of God USA and believe in the initial physical evidence also b/t/w)

If we threw out every doctrine that was not explicitly taught, we would have to throw out much of our doctrine of God. The Bible is NOT a textbook. It is a collage of writings all collected together over time. There are historical books, poetic books, wisdom literature, prophetic books, hymnals(psalms), all showing God active in time and history and in the lives of individuals and nations, giving us paterns for faith and belief. There is no 1,2,3 method about scripture. To look at only one scripture and base your whole belief on that lone passage is to shut your eyes to the rest of the Bible. Deut.6:4 tells us that there is only one God, but John 1:1 gives us a clearer picture as to His person. Clearly, the Word was God, and was with God at the same time. Showing two distinct persons yet one person.

"How dare you bring judgement on a child of God."

I would say, "How dare you say I'm judging people." I'm not judging people, but I and every other Christian has the right and responsibility to judge teachings according to scripture. What ever happened to being called a noble Berean? I have looked at the Oneness teaching and found it dreadfully wanting according to the scriptures. Once again, our argument isn't whether there are more than one god, but about the one and only God and His nature of being.

Why should we have a right view of God? A W Tozer gives a good answer in "Knowledge Of The Holy": "It is impossible to keep our moral practices sound and our inward attitudes right while our idea of God is erroneous or inadequate. If we would bring back spiritual power to our lives, we must begin to think of God more nearly as He is."

And Gregory L. Crosthwait writes: "First of all, if we understand God to be self-existent, eternal, and personal, characterized by such an action as love, then a mono-personal God cannot be adequate, for love demands an object. Consider Deuteronomy 6:4-5: "Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one! And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might." The first part of this passage is one of the great texts affirming the essential unity of God. And love is the proper human response to Him. This love is not some squishy feeling, but rather an expression of devotion from someone to someone. Love has a source and love has an object. Since human beings are created in the image of God, then He must be capable of love in His very self. So, when we hear, "God is love," (1 John 4:16) we must realize that in Himself God must be at least two. Scott Horrell writes, "In short, it seems from every vantage that for God to be infinitely personal and to be love, he must exist as at least two persons. A mono-personal God is not 'big enough' to be God."

The Trinity needs to be re-grasped by believers again today. It needs to be taught in our churches once again to our people so they can see just how great our God is.

Some good articles to read are :
[url=http://www.probe.org/docs/nicea.html]The Council of Nicea[/url]
[url=http://www.probe.org/docs/trinitydiff.html]What Difference Does The Trinity Make?[/url]
[url=http://www.probe.org/docs/bel-trin.html]Why We Should Believe In The Trinity[/url]

In Christ,
Jeremy Hulsey


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Jeremy Hulsey

 2003/10/6 15:32Profile
Josh
Member



Joined: 2003/10/7
Posts: 1


 Re:

How can you be a 'oneness Penteocostal' and in the AoG in Australia. I am also in the AoG in Australia and we are distinctly trinitarian and if you are there then you must be covering it up or lying.

 2003/10/8 0:25Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re: the price of our salvation

There is an aspect of this debate which I think could repay some thought. I can best explain by unpacking a couple of verses.

Romans 5:24,25 “being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
whom God set forth to be a propitiation, through faith, in his blood, to show his righteousness because of the passing over of the sins done aforetime, in the forbearance of God;”
This states that God set forth Christ Jesus to be a propitiation… For the Trinitarian this is reference to 2 persons of the godhead in the work of the cross. According to this verse Christ IS the propitiation; the price paid to remove the cause of the offence with a view to reconciliation. (BTW there is a wonderful use of the word ‘kaphar, atone’ in Gen 32:20. Jacob says “I will APPEASE him with the present that goeth before me, and afterward I will see his face; peradventure he will accept of me.” For the preachers among us, this is a perfect bible illustration of ‘propitiation’. God has made ‘atonement’ in that He has displayed Christ Jesus as ‘the propitiation’. The resurrection proved the acceptance of the value of the price paid and we can now look Him in the eye and know that we are accepted in the Beloved One.

A second verse is Hebrews 9:14
How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? Again for the Trinitarian this is a reference to all three persons of the godhead in the work of the cross. I really can’t get my head around the idea that Jesus offered himself TO himself THROUGH himself.

The essence of the price paid was Christ’s separation from His Father. Throughout His earthly walk he prayed constantly to Abba, Father. It is a recurring reference to the intimacy of their relationship. I can’t get my head around Christ calling Himself “My Father”, either. (or, for that matter, the Father calling Himself “My Son”) Psalm 22 is the testimony of Jesus (which is the ‘spirit of prophecy’ according to Revelation 19:10) and it begins with the most terrible expression of separation; “My God, my God, why has thou forsaken me.” This is testimony to an I-thou relationship which has been enjoyed but is now lost. It is impossible for a single individual to have an I-thou relationship, unless he is extremely sick or worse. Notice that for the only time in the history of Christ’s earthly walk and relationship it refers to My God, rather than My Father. At this point the price was paid. His relationship with His Father was forfeit in payment for a world’s sin.

2 Cor 8:9 “For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.” His ‘riches’ was His unique relationship with His Father. His poverty was what the theologians call ‘the cry of dereliction’. He lost the right to call Him Father in order to buy that right for me.

Oneness theology undermines this whole vein of truth. WKIP


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2003/10/20 5:45Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

Quote:
Notice that for the only time in the history of Christ’s earthly walk and relationship it refers to My God, rather than My Father


Never really picked up on that before.
Quote:
His poverty was what the theologians call ‘the cry of dereliction’. He lost the right to call Him Father in order to buy that right for me.


Are these meant to be tied together, 'the cry of dereliction' with losing the right to call Him Father? Just curious.

Also, this is assuming that forfeiting His right to call Him Father was only up to the point of His death, not after He rose. For instance John 20:17 "....Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father;...."


_________________
Mike Balog

 2003/10/20 9:59Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Hi crsschk

my posting: His poverty was what the theologians call ‘the cry of dereliction’. He lost the right to call Him Father in order to buy that right for me.


your quote: Are these meant to be tied together, 'the cry of dereliction' with losing the right to call Him Father? Just curious.

The cry of dereliction or abandonment is the expression of the lost intimacy which came as a result of sinbearing. Rom 4:25 says (literally) "who was handed over/abandoned for our offences". This is another statement that demands an answer from our Oneness brethren; who abandonded Him? If Father, Son and Spirit are successive modes of the One God how could He abandon Himself?

your quote: Also, this is assuming that forfeiting His right to call Him Father was only up to the point of His death, not after He rose. For instance John 20:17 "....Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father;...."

Absolutely. In the unbroken fellowship of Father with Son we only ever hear Abba, Father. At this hinge of history that relationship changed for an eternal moment. Moments later He reverts to using Father saying "Father into thy hands I commend my spirit." This is what makes the single use of "My God" so striking.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2003/10/20 11:16Profile





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