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dpike777
Member



Joined: 2003/9/7
Posts: 17


 The Trinity/Oneness Question.

The whole issue for me is settled in the following verse:

1Jo 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

It states here that there is a 3 in 1 God in heaven.

So, in my mind, God is both three and one, one and three. It is incomprehensible to the human finite mind to comprehend how He could be three and yet one, one and yet three. But that is what makes Him God. If I could understand everything about God, then He would not be much of a god at all.

The Oneness and Trinity people need to come together and realize that they are on opposite sides of the same coin. Their both right and yet both wrong. Wrong in that the Oneness people refuse to acknowledge the 'Trinity' of God and the Trinity people refuse to acknowledge the 'Oneness' of God.

When people ask me where I stand, I simply tell them that I'm Trini-Oneness. That gets their attention real fast and then they tell me that I cannot be both. However, I am both and I believe the scripture backs me up.

I hope you understand what I'm trying to convey.



;-)

Blessings to all who love our Lord Jesus Christ in sincerity and truth.
dpike777

 2003/9/16 7:04Profile
Chosen7Stone
Member



Joined: 2003/7/21
Posts: 268
FL, USA

 Re: The Trinity/Oneness Question.

When I'm witnessing to someone, especially a Jew, I'm often asked to explain this concept. For the sake of ease of understanding, I usually compare it to a loaf of bread. (Please don't look to deep into this metaphor...I can only go so far in giving good examples.) I say to think of a loaf of bread cut into three pieces; all bread, three pieces. Ta-da.
I read a book some time ago called "The Pleasures of God" by John Piper. He's rather wordy, and spent some time explaining his thoughts on the Trinity. Whether you agree or not, it's an interesting perspective to look into. The book itself was very good as well (Piper's a Calvinist, by the way ;-)).
Going back to my original statement though, the question usually arises among Jews, and it's incredibly important to emphasize my belief in one God, which lines up with the primary statement of the Jewish faith: “Shemah Yisrael, Adonai eloheinu, Adonai echad — Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is one.” He's the same now as He's always been. :-)
P.S. Here's an awesome site to help in [url=http://www.familybible.org/Articles/Jewish-ChristianRelations/Witnessing.htm]witnessing to Jewish friends[/url].


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Mary M.

 2003/9/16 9:47Profile
Nasher
Member



Joined: 2003/7/28
Posts: 404
Watford, UK

 Re: The Trinity/Oneness Question.

dpike777, not that I disagree with you in the slightest but have you read that verse in any of these versions:

NIV, NASB, ESV, Darby?


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Mark Nash

 2003/9/16 11:10Profile
dpike777
Member



Joined: 2003/9/7
Posts: 17


 Re:

For serious study I stick with the KJV.

 2003/9/16 18:11Profile
Nasher
Member



Joined: 2003/7/28
Posts: 404
Watford, UK

 Re:

dpike777, as do I but some people do not use it and therefore might not accept an argument on a verse that is not in their bible.

Another good verse that is not in 'newer' versions is Acts 8:37


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Mark Nash

 2003/9/17 8:24Profile
Ashwyn
Member



Joined: 2003/10/2
Posts: 5


 Re: The Trinity/Oneness Question.

The earliest manuscripts only read "So there are three witnesses." The rest was added in later.

I don't see the reason for putting so much stress on the importance of accepting the trinity. Especially as it is a concept we can't fully understand anyway, God is hardly going to separate us on judgemnt day according to who had the best theology.

Some verses to read:
Mt. 17:27; 21:18,19; 21:28-31; and especially 25:31-46, copied below (KJV)

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

You see although we cannot work our way to heaven, and we all need the atoning blood of Christ, which God gives us through His grace. Despite this, we forget that God is not obligated to let us into heaven, he will only let in those who believe in Jesus, and ifwe believe in Him, won't we try to live our lives the way he told us?

Sincerity and obedience to His word are what God looks for, and this is only possible if we have faith in God. "...now show me your fatih apart from works, and I by works, will show you my faith." (James 2:18) But don't fall into the trap of thinking that to 'believe in Jesus' means to work out exactly what His relationship with the Father and the Holy Spirit is, and then believe in this "You believe that God is one; you do well. So do the demons believe and shudder". (James 2:19)

Sorry for the essay, but I hope you read it all and give me some comments on what you think.

 2003/10/2 8:56Profile
Betty
Member



Joined: 2003/10/2
Posts: 1


 Re: The Trinity/Oneness Question.

HI everyone! I am new here! I was caught by this topic as I have been dealing with this issue for over 40 years. I like the bread analogy. However, one that I have found that works really well is the water-ice-steam anology. Water is the CORE of all three, water is water, ice has its core in water yet serves a different purpose and steam has water as its core as well and yet it has it purpose and yet ice and steam do not exist outside of water. Water MUST be present in order for the others to exist. It is the same with the Godhead. I know many who claim to be trinitarians but DO NOT belive in three gods but rather one. Anyway, just my input...In Christ, Betty

 2003/10/2 9:56Profile
todd
Member



Joined: 2003/5/12
Posts: 573
California

 Re:

Ashwyn,
Excellent post. I agree with you. And I think it is fair to conclude in a more general way from what you wrote, and I share this opinion, that Jesus is very practical. I also think that He is more into practicality than theory. Faith is evidenced by works.

 2003/10/2 13:51Profile
jeremyhulsey
Member



Joined: 2003/4/18
Posts: 777


 Re:

There are several debates on this forum all dealing with the Trinity. While God is not expecting us to get our theology straight before He ascibes to us salvation, error in theology is not something to be obtained. Either Trinitarians or Oneness have at the core of their beliefs a correct view of the Godhead or an wrong view. Both cannot be correct at the same time. Certain things in theology can be considered side issues: Do you meet on saturday or sunday? Do you have communion every service? Do you dunk or do you sprinkle?. Some, however effect the very core of our belief and can lead to either greater spiritual gains or greater spiritual error.

Here are some quotes in defence of the Trinity:

"As this doctrine is believed on the one hand or challenged on the other, Christian life is found to be affected at its roots and over all its extent. Every doctrine is run up to it; every privilege and duty hangs on it... However a man may begin his career of error, the general issue is that the doctrine of the Trinity, proving an unexpected check or insurmountable obstacle in the carrying out of his opinions, has to be modified or pushed aside; and he comes to be against the Trinity because he has found it was against him."
George Smeaton, The Doctrine of the Holy Spirit (Carlisle, Pa.: The Banner of Truth, 1980), p.5

"A person who claims the doctrine of the Trinity is false because the word "Trinity" is not found in Scripture is as foolish as someone who claims 3½ inches, or, say, 5¼ centimeters do not exist because his ruler only shows whole numbers. The doctrine of the Trinity is presented in Scripture clearly enough for spiritual people to recognize, and solidly enough for unspiritual people to stumble over."
Anton Hein


"The fatal shortcoming of oneness theology is the fact that it must deny the personal relationships within the Trinity that appear in so many places in Scripture. (Or it must affirm that those appearances are mere illusion and not real) Thus it must deny three separate persons at the baptism of Jesus, where the Father speaks from heaven and the Spirit descends on Jesus like a dove. And it must say that all those instances where Jesus is praying to the Father are an illusion or a charade. The idea of the Son and the Holy Spirit interceding for us before God the Father is lost. Finally, oneness theology ultimately loses the heart of the doctrine of the atonement--that is, the idea that God sent His Son as a substitutionary sacrifice, and that the Son bore the wrath of God in our place and that the Father, representing the interests of the Trinity, saw the suffering of Christ and was satisfied.(Isaiah 53:11)"-Grudem, Systematic Theology, pg242.

In Christ,
Jeremy Hulsey


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Jeremy Hulsey

 2003/10/2 14:11Profile
todd
Member



Joined: 2003/5/12
Posts: 573
California

 Re:

Quote:
"Either Trinitarians or Oneness have at the core of their beliefs a correct view of the Godhead or an wrong view. Both cannot be correct at the same time."

Could they be looking at the same mystery but describing it in different ways? So that in some ways both may be right and wrong? Thus it remains a mystery?

 2003/10/2 14:18Profile





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