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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Sinning to Meet Needs

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twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2012
Joplin, Missouri

 Re: Sinning to Meet Needs

Trekker:

17Not because I desire a gift: but I desire fruit that may abound to your account.

18But I have all, and abound: I am full, having received of Epaphroditus the things which were sent from you, an odour of a sweet smell, a sacrifice acceptable, wellpleasing to God.

19But my God shall supply all your need according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus.

These verses are speaking, in context, of the financial or material needs of the church at Philippi. But there is a further application that financial needs are not under a different system than any other need.

However, we must receive from God based on faith. Look up all the times that the scriptures speak of receiving from God being "according to your faith". I believe a consequence of holding an extreme view of sovereignty can lead to believing that God simply did not supply a need. But the relationship is one of faith toward God that opens the door for our receiving what He has supplied.

The situations you described all demonstrate a lack of faith that God will meet the need and a turning to the flesh to supply the need. Each person has sought to meet the need through something other than God.

Granted there are times when God does not meet the need in the way we might like Him to do so. There are things we do not understand. But in the specific examples you gave I see a lack of faith and perseverance and a turning to self to satisfy the need.

We cannot eliminate the element of faith in receiving from God. And, yes, I do believe it makes a difference whether a person is a child of God or not.

As to the question of lying to hide Jews. The commandment says, "Thou shalt not bear false witness." The context of the commandment is not exactly "Thou shalt not speak words that are untrue in any situation." I have personally struggled with this question as well. I see only two options. Believe God to get you out of it or protect the person in question. A similar example might be "thou shalt not commit murder." This is not the same as "don't use deadly force to protect your family."

But are we really asking the wrong question? We enter a realm of doing what the Pharisees did in the Talmud by debating exactly what it means to bear false witness and how we can keep or break the law. We enter into the letter of the law. Should we not rather walk in the spirit led by the Holy Spirit and seek to be led of the Lord as He has written His law in our hearts? I am not trying to argue a point with the last two paragraphs, but rather further the question as I am still not totally settled on the matter myself.

Perhaps it comes down to faith as well?


_________________
Travis

 2012/4/25 11:18Profile
hulsey
Moderator



Joined: 2006/7/5
Posts: 640
Missouri

 Re: Sinning to Meet Needs

Trekker,

These are not needs. There is a world of difference between need and desire. Everything you've listed is desire and James addresses this when he wrote that we are lead away by our desires.


_________________
SI Moderator - Jeremy Hulsey

 2012/4/25 11:19Profile
MaryJane
Member



Joined: 2006/7/31
Posts: 3057


 Re:

Jeff wrote:Different than fornicating to fulfill personal lustful desire, getting drunk to numb pain, etc. if smuggling Bibles into china or Myanmar and asked at airport security if I have illegal Bibles, I may say "no". That fits your example. Far different than committing fornication, getting drunk on wine not filled with the Spirir, stealing from another, etc. far different

___________

I think this is a valid point. When I first read the original post, I thought, the difference between what my flesh may see as "need" and the LORD knows is a need does matter. In my flesh I may not feel the LORD responding to a prayer soon enough so I might react and in doing so I fall into sin. In each of the examples given the person does not seem to wait on the LORD but behave as "lord" of their own life making decisions for self based on what they determine is a "need"

I think the topic is an interesting one but would discuss using the other examples given by some of the other posters :)

God Bless
mj

 2012/4/25 11:22Profile
MaryJane
Member



Joined: 2006/7/31
Posts: 3057


 Re:

Twayneb wrote:But are we really asking the wrong question? We enter a realm of doing what the Pharisees did in the Talmud by debating exactly what it means to bear false witness and how we can keep or break the law. We enter into the letter of the law. Should we not rather walk in the spirit led by the Holy Spirit and seek to be led of the Lord as He has written His law in our hearts? I am not trying to argue a point with the last two paragraphs, but rather further the question as I am still not totally settled on the matter myself.

Perhaps it comes down to faith as well?
________________

I think it does come down to faith, at least that is what I am seeing in my own walk. Thank you for sharing the above paragraph it has given me some things to think on as I struggle with some of these questions as well :)

God bless
mj

 2012/4/25 11:26Profile
ET101
Member



Joined: 2010/10/26
Posts: 240


 Re:

Jesus was Man. He lived through His teens, twenties and to His thirties. . . His humanity WANTED to be with a woman.

I wonder where we'd be if He'd met His need for female company with a secret Ronda on the side as He preached 'love not this world.'

Just because I have a legitimate need and no legitimate way of fulfilling it, I'm then justified to sin.. . errr. .. not so much.

 2012/4/25 11:39Profile









 Re: Sinning to Meet Needs

Quote:
A woman enters into fornication to meet her need for intimacy…. No one else is being hurt by what she and her boyfriend are doing.



Are you sure about that?

Behold, Yahweh's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; nor His ear heavy, that it cannot hear.- 2- But your own iniquities have separated you from your Father; and your own sins have caused Him to hide His face from you, so He will not listen. Isaiah 59

Isaiah makes it clear. Our prayers are not heard because of what? INIQUITY

INIQUITY - setting aside the Law, to render it useless.

Paul tells us in 2 Thessalonians 2:7

For the mystery of iniquity does already work: only he who now restrains will do so, until he be taken out of the way. — the mystery that mere people think they can set aside the laws of Yahweh!

Strong’s Dic­tio­nary: H5771 (Iniq­uity): per­ver­sity, that is, (moral) evil: Thus sin, when repeated against the knowl­edge of God, becomes trans­gres­sion which, if it con­tin­ues long enough, even­tu­ally becomes iniq­uity which per­verts the flesh. This per­ver­sion changes the DNA/RNA struc­ture of the “flesh” and “beliefs” or “atti­tudes” result­ing in genetic changes that are passed on from gen­er­a­tion to generation.

Did you catch that, iniquity perverts the flesh? Alters ones DNA? Passed on from generation to generation? Unbelievable.

That act of fornication, is hurting more innocent people than you could ever imagine.

 2012/4/25 11:55
Trekker
Member



Joined: 2011/7/29
Posts: 683
northern USA

 Re:

QUOTE: " God ALWAYS meets our needs as true believers in Christ Jesus. Numerous scriptures to support this fact. One question is, what do WE define as need and what does God know as a need vs a desire? A girl commits fornication because she NEEDS to? Doesn't sound like she's trusting God for His timing in a husband!!"==JEFFMAR


Jeffmar, that is simply NOT true, and i and others are living proof. Also, the examples i provided were at least partially based on actual people and circumstances that i know about. The woman never in all her days did get a husband which she prayed for. I never said she committed fornication because she needed to, i said she committed fornication to meet the need for intimacy, touch and affection (a need many men perhaps don't understand because they are motivated more by lust when they fornicate, whereas women tend to be more motivated by neediness or lonliness, etc...don't argue with me about this fact, i'm not saying there are not exceptions or that lust can't later enter in)

You all KNOW what a NEED is. A need is not a cookie or dessert, it is not a want. A need is water and oxygen.

Another example that comes to mind is a real life Christian US Marine who came back from Iraq/Afghanistan and had such severe PTSD that he could hardly function. I forget his name but it made national headlines a few years ago and made me cry. He was SO traumatized and had such severe flashbacks he had constant nightmares and even paranoid delusions and posed a danger to even his own family. He tried God, he tried prayer, to no avail. He tried psychiatry/witch doctors. Tormented 24/7 he resorted to huffing. His chronic screaming, violent nightmares destroyed his relationship with his wife...she couldnt sleep,feel safe around him, etc. His friends/fellow soldiers did everything the knew to try to comfort, encourage, and save him. Finally, unable to take no more, he committed suicide. This man had a NEED. Don't insanely pretend it was just a "desire" or a "want". You KNOW what a NEED is. And didn't God promise he would never give us more than we could handle?

An attack on God? Certainly not consciously. Whether or not spiritual forces posed the question to my mind i don't know but i need an answer so please try and please do so without sniping at me please. It is a question i am struggling with.



QUOTE: "What if the 3 Hebrew boys in the fire used your logic? They said, "Our God is able to deliver us, BUT EVEN IF HE DOESN'T, we may burn, but we will never bow!" that's the heart of one who truly understands total human depravity, God's amazing grace and will, & the call to "take up your cross, deny yourself, & follow" Christ!!"==JEFFMAR


Now this is a better answer. However, then i'm thinking, 'Yea but those men were suffering for their testimony, for their service to God, so that's a bit different...i'm just talking about every day needs...' However, it did make me think of Job...just trying to think if anything he suffered could have been considered a need....

 2012/4/25 19:47Profile
Trekker
Member



Joined: 2011/7/29
Posts: 683
northern USA

 Re:

QUOTE: "Is it ok to lie? I may hide Jews in a secret room in order to protect them and then lie to the authorities that I don't know what they are talking about. Is it righteous to lie to prevent a horrible atrocity?"==PILGRIM777


I don't know. Great question, although nothing to do with this post. I know that Corrie tenBoom's sister refused to lie when the Nazis came to the house demanding to know if there were any Jews hidden there. She openly told the Nazis they were hiding Jews and where they were. Can't recall what happened after that but eventually she and Corrie's father wound up in concentration camp and died of disease and starvation. (Well hey! There would be another unmet need! The need for food in a concentration camp.)

 2012/4/25 19:59Profile
Trekker
Member



Joined: 2011/7/29
Posts: 683
northern USA

 Re:

QUOTE: "19 But my God shall supply all your need according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus."==TWAYNEB


Thank you for providing this scripture Twayneb. Please explain to me how, in the light of this PROMISE, you would explain the starvation of Corrie tenBoom's Christian sister and father in the concentration camps. I really need to know the answer to this issue. Thank you.


QUOTE: "Isaiah makes it clear. Our prayers are not heard because of what? INIQUITY"==EPHAH


So then what was the sin of Corrie tenBoom's sister and father that God let them die of starvation under the Nazis?
If our prayers are not answered because of our sins, woe to us all!! Who is sinless among you??? I guess we should all leave off praying then....

 2012/4/25 20:02Profile









 Re:

Trekker :
"Quite obviously God does NOT meet all our needs, despite Christian songs to the contrary."

Jim:
God has met all of my needs in Christ Jesus. God often uses means to meet needs though, maybe that is where your confusion is? For instance he says get a husband if you cant control your passion. Still according to Jesus we need food, clothing, and shelter. I will have to take his word above yours friend. I would cut off whoever you are allowing to sow lies against the promises of God into your life.

Trekker :
"Finally, unable to take no more, he committed suicide. This man had a NEED."

Jim:
This is a good one here though Trekker.

Note that this mans problem was a result of his poor choice to volunteer for the US army. He cant even blame it on anyone else. Like if I go gamble away my rent payemtn adn claim God didnt meet my need to pay rent?? Yet I guess the real question is where are the christians full of the Holy Ghost who can impart the power of God into this mans life to set him free from his demons?

That is the more important question for all of us. That is the one that might keep me up tonight.

 2012/4/25 20:05





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