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Also from a Calvary Chapel website that I found helpful:
The question of whether or not a Christian can lose or walk away from salvation (point 5 in both doctrinal systems) is academic. When a person who claims to be a Christian and shows some fruit to that effect turns his back on God and lives the life of a pagan, the Arminian says he was saved and is now not saved, while the Calvinist says that he was either never really saved to start with, or that he is severely backslidden, but still within grace. Ultimately, no one, not even the sinning person, knows the truth only God does. In a backslidden or sin-filled state, there is no assurance of salvation, no resting in Jesus, no peace of God in the heart. So the sinning person, whether he is actually a Christian or just thinks he might be, needs to repent and get right with God. The true believer in Christ never has to doubt his salvation. He can rest in the perfect assurance that God saved him and will keep him, and nothing will ever separate him from God's love in time or eternity. We are secure in Christ, kept by the power of His loving grace, forever safe in Jesus.
We are not called to understand God, only to believe Him. I am a free moral agent, responsible for my own sin, hopelessly lost. Jesus not only died for me, He drew me to Himself with bands of lovingkindness and grace, convicted me of my sin, gave me the power to call Him Lord, and will one day present me faultless before His presence with great joy. I am, by His grace, His child. And yet, I am still free to walk with Him or not to walk with Him. And what applies to me, applies to every human being. Jesus died for all of us and desires fellowship with all of us. Whosoever will may come and receive of His forgiveness and grace and salvation. Innocent babies who die are safe in heaven. God's election excludes no one; Jesus' atonement includes everyone. As has been pointed out, we are looking at two sides of the same coin. Election is God's side, free will is our side. Someone once said that as we enter life, we see emblazoned over the gateway the words "Whosoever will may come"; then as we enter and look back at the backside of the same gateway, we see inscribed what the words "Elect from the foundation of the earth". Election is God's side of the coin we call salvation, human responsibility is our side.
Quoted from here:
| 2012/4/11 23:41||Profile|
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While this post is up and i have been worrying about my salvation again as i see myself fall more and more away from the Lord over the past couple of years. I have sought him and i have come now to where my faith in Christ is really gone, but i am still fighting for some reason. If you guys could pray for me and about my soul, as i see my heart and mind becoming more wicked, i dont want to give up still, the problem is not as much demon as it is my own sinful heart, don't ,mean to interupt this talk, but please pray for my salvation or to be restored, thank you.
| 2012/4/11 23:57||Profile|
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Just for the record, I believe that no power on earth can take me out of my Lord's hand, but I can choose to walk away. This ability is the genius of God, this is how He made humans in the first place. Our very humanity lies in the ability to reject God. He is looking for a people who will freely worship Him and fellowship with Him, walk in the cool of the day.
Its really not that difficult folks. He wants us, He has always wanted us. He created us for a purpose. He created us with the ability to choose. We had it in the beginning by the hand and the purpose and the design of God Himself. He does not and has never wanted robots. He could have easily created robots to do His bidding and to worship Him.
The monarch butterfly migrates over 3000 miles and settles back down on the very branch that it was born on. It does it by instinct, not by choice nor by intellect. The Killer whales hunt together, they do it by instinct and by nature, not by choice nor by intellect. The dog barks, the wolf howls, the eagle soars, the polar bear wanders the vastness of the ice and they do it all by instinct. They are brilliantly designed by our God, praise God for His magnificent creation and it is good.
And God also had another creature that would not exist by instinct. He created man and it was very good. He endowed this creature with free will. Free to choose life, free to walk with God in the cool of the day, free to exist in the garden, free to fellowship with the living God. Yet, they were also free to sin, free to be disobedient, free to choose to reject the word of God. And it was this freedom, free to obey and fellowship or free to dis-obey and walk away that made them human, this was their very humanity, this was the perfectness of God's creation, this is life itself. This is the plan of God. Knowing that without a choice then men could not be men and worship would not be authentic and real.
A redeemed people are as free as Adam was. Free in Christ to choose to follow God, free in Christ to choose to fellowship with God, free in Christ to walk away. None of this effect Gods sovereignty, how could anything we mere mortals do within the very plan of God effect His sovereignty? What an audacious and hellish thought, what a preposterous thought that we , grasshoppers to Him who sits above the circle of the earth, could ever effect His sovereignty in any way.
Its His plan and anything that we have was given to us, including free will. Free will is a gift, the ability to choose where we shall spend eternity. If we remember the majesty and the vastness of God, we would know that this free will, this gift from God in no way effects who He is or takes away from Him. Think about that brothers and sisters, who or what could take away anything from God?
Man can have free will and it in no way effect who God is, the only one affected by mans free will is man. God would have that all would exercise their free will and choose to be obedient. God sent His Son to die for the world, His beautiful creation. He has made the way, He has, its all Him, He has done it all and then He presents the choice to man, just as He did in the beginning. This almighty God has given us a gift. Whether the recipient takes it or rejects it is a reflection on the recipient not the giver of the Gift. Man is a mere creature presented with a choice and God has given man the ability to choose life or to choose death. What will you do man?
| 2012/4/12 0:10|
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i have to agree with krisipy and the brother he quoted
what do you brothers say about the letter of john ,which seems to have verses that are in the contex of apostates
as krisipy said
they went out from us because they were not of us
if they had been of us they would have continued with us
but they went out from us ,that it might be manifets they were never of us ,,,,,,,,john say in the same letter you are of god little children
we see that those who went out were not of god ,but as john says of the devil
1 John, Chapter 3
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
is it possable for a true child of god to fall aways from the faith and which is characterized by a sinfull life
not according to verse 9 ,,becasue gods seed is in him and he is sealed with the spirit ,,,the two clear reasons why a christain does not fall away as did the people spoken of in
1 John, Chapter 2
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.
for his seed remains in him is one
because he is born of god ,was the second
and verse 20 of chapter 2 gives the same reason in others words ,why did you not go out with them ?,becasue you have unction your are born again you have gods seed in you
1 John, Chapter 3
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
He that committeth sin is of the devil;
who ever practices sin persues sin ,continues in sin ,or the direct contex of the letter falls back into sin ,and apostasises
has never seen god ,nor has he known god in the contex of abiding in him and being truly born again
the verse can be literaly taken ,as who ever has not knowen or seen god has never abided in him in the first place ,but he is of the devil ,his sinfull life that we see in this case proves he never abided in christ
but he who is born of god keeps him self and the evil one does not touch him 5,18 of 1 john
19 WE KNOW WE ARE OF GOD AND THE WHOLE WORLD LIES UNDER THE SWAY OF THE WICKED ONE
a true christian will not fall in to satans traps , and become a disobedant child giving him self to the prince and the power of the air wich is the spirit that works in the sons of disobedance
my sheep hear my voice
and i know them
and they follow me
and i give to them eturnal life
AND THEY SHALL NEVER PERISH
NEITHER SHALL ANYONE PLUCK THEM OUT OF MY HAND
John, Chapter 6
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
our father has a souvern will and plan for is elect ,
in is son he fullfills his will
christ did and is doing gods will and saving through santfication of his spirit is the mark of gods work and he who began a good work in you will finish it dont doubt gods power in you ,all things are posable ,dont bye in to the lie of the devil that you might walk away and deni his son ,,
i will sprinkle clean water on you and you will be clean
i will take out that heart of stone
and put into you a heart of flesh
and i will wright my laws on that heart
and I WILL CAUSE YOU TO WALK IN MY STATUTES AND JUDGMENT
you are a new creation in christ ,
old things have passed away all things have become new
IAM WORKING IN YOU BOTH TO WILL AND TO DO
FOR MY GOOD PLEASURE
YOU ARE MY CHILDREN ,AND I WILL NOT FORSAKE YOU
I HAVE PRAYED TO MY FATHER THAT WE MAY BE ONE
AND THAT YOU WILL BEHOLD MY GLORY THAT I HAD BEFOR THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD
YOU ARE MINE ,AND I AM YOUR
MY BLOOD HAS BROUGHT YOU BACK TO ME ,AND MY FATHER WAS PLEASED TO HAVE ME DIE FOR YOU
SHALL I NOT RECIEVE THE REWARD OF MY SUFFERINGS
SHALL I NOT HAVE THE FRUIT OF MY DOINGS
SHALL I NOT RECIEVE THE PATITIONS I HAVE ASKED
MY FATHER LOVES ME AND HAS GIVERN YOU IN TO MY HAND
SO ENDURE TILL THE END AND KEEP MY COMANDMENT
I GIVE YOU POWER THROUGH MY WORD AND SPIRIT TO ACCOMLISH ALL THAT I ASK ,,IT IS I WHO WORKS IN YOU ,BOTH TO WILL AND DO FOR MY GOOD PLEASURE
I COME QUICKLY
WATCH ASK KNOCK
| 2012/4/12 3:21||Profile|
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Praying for you ....
| 2012/4/12 4:19||Profile|
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Old Joe said: "John 3:36 teaches you either are in present possession of life that is EVERLASTING or the wrath of God is abiding on you."
I think it is a basic misconception to say that WE possess everlasting (or eternal) life. Jesus Christ is the possessor of eternal life and if we are in possession of Him (and He of us), then we have what he has, even eternal life!
John 3:36 actually says 'He who believes in the Son has everlasting life.' So understnding that 'believes' means not a mental agreement only, but a complete trust and dependence on The Son.
John clarifies this in 1 John 5:11&12 when he says "....that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has life, he who does not have the Son of God does not have life."
"This life is IN HIS SON"!
If you have the Son today, rejoice because you are eternally secure in Him! But if you once had the Son, but have now rejected Him, beware you may well have rejected the eternal life that is in Him!
Coincidentally (or not)I was reading today's reading from Oswald Chambers and I quote: "Eternal life is not a gift from God, eternal life is the gift OF God."
There is a big difference!
| 2012/4/12 5:27||Profile|
| Re: Believing in the Son of God & The Christ of God|
Paul advocated that one who takes the name of Christ ought to examine himself to see if Christ is in him. He concluded 'if Christ be not in you, you are none of His'.
It must surly follow that such an examination is both possible and at times would seem to be necessary. To exclude the mind from this process is like driving to market with your goods and forgetting to harness the donkey. There cannot be any issue with the mind agreeing with a more profound reality, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.
Old Joe is exactly correct in what he has said. I would be hesitant to instruct an older man myself. The distinction you have made HeyDave seems to be a matter of words.
I cant understand why you say that the one who believes in the Son is not in themselves in possession of eternal life. It is true that 'The life' is the Son, however, don't you know that your spirit is born from on high if you receive the Son. As a matter of accuracy The Christ of God, even the Son is seated at the right hand of the Father. It is by the Spirit that we have Christ in us. Moreover it is not possible for one who is born again to reject Christ.
We should not confuse the old man with the new creature. The old man sins every day, the new creature cannot sin. See John,s letter where he says 'He who is born again cannot sin', and then 'We know that we sin every day'. This seems like a contradiction, but its meaning is as I have stated above.
A similar pair of Scriptures points to the same thing. "If we walk in the light as He is in the Light, then the blood of Christ cleanses us from all sin'. 'If we confess our sins, He is just and righteous to forgive our sins'. The former requires no confession but results in a clear benefit. The latter requires our confessing in order to benefit. As the life which we have received is a sinless life then as a new creature we cannot sin. This is the story of the spirit. The soul however, which without the application of the cross unto death, daily, is the old man and he sins without thought for he is a sinner by nature. In the Psalms it is written' Thy word oh Lord is a lamp unto my feet and a light to my path'. We are illuminated both from within and without. If we walk in darkness the light still shines in our inner man, in such a condition we will have to confess our sins. But if we walk in the light of the path we will be cleansed daily by the grace of God.
| 2012/4/12 6:30|
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Honestly, Krispy, it is a dangerous thing to desire to twist the clear and simple Word of God to protect your own belief system. You will not respond according to the Word, or your heart faith, for you are indoctrinated, and cannot extract yourself lest other pillars of this belief system may crash down upon you too.
Tom... I think we need to avoid telling each other that the other is "indoctrinated". We are ALL indoctrinated, if we're honest with ourselves. But name calling, and saying things like that is a low-brow way to discuss this. Let's try to rise above that kind of thing.
Krispy and others state that they werent saved to begin with but yet no one instructed the precious souls that they might not be saved! No! They were told, "Say this prayer and you WILL GO to heaven," with no other instruction. So, Im wondering how many saved people will stand in front of God with blood on their hands over teaching eternal security? You need to analyze exactly what it is that you are teaching innocent souls.
I have ALWAYS fought against "easy believism" and "say this prayer and you're saved". I agree 110% with you, I think a lot of evangelicals will stand before God with blood on their hands because of this. Reformed theology actually rages against this type of nonsense.
Krispy, I remember a few months back that you praised God for leading a man to Christ; you and a few other men in your church. Has he been back to church? Did anyone disciple that man? During that prayer time, did anyone instruct him that he might not be saved after that prayer you all lead him in? And did he walk away thinking he was saved or not?
Lysa... Yes, he is in the church and is exhibiting fruits of repentence. The fruit is there. You seem to think that we assume someone isnt saved, but the contrary is true. We assume a man IS saved. If he is then according to scripture he will manifest fruits of repentence. We cant judge a man's heart, and Christians do sin. Thats getting into the realm of playing God, which none of us can do. If someone shows no signs of repentence and continues on in sin then we are concerned for that man's soul. We dont just give up. Anyway, our church is BIG on discipleship, and he has been discipled by one gentleman in our church who is gifted in that... along with growing in fellowship with the other men.
| 2012/4/12 8:21|
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Salvation is a process not a process of accumulating "good works" as in the cultic sense of salvation process, but the process by which God's dynamic grace is continuously applied to our lives, in the "saving life of Christ." Salvation is the dynamic process of the work of the Savior in His people. (J.Fowler)
So in regards to the thief on the cross... how does this process apply to him? He must have been on the fast track! :-)
What you are talking about is not salvation... you are talking about sanctification. Salvation happens once. Sanctification is the process in growing in the Lord.
BY THE WAY, I am very pleased that this topic is going so well! This is blessing and a witness to all who may be reading this. We can all disagree and do so in a loving way. Awesome!
At the end of the day no matter where any of us land on this topic, we are all brothers and sisters in the Lord.
| 2012/4/12 8:21|
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Krispy please explain to me the parable of the ten virgins. And John 15 about abiding in Christ. If we do not abide we are cut out... Thanks brian.
| 2012/4/12 9:05||Profile|