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philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re: Starting Over with a New Identity

When considering the Biblical implications of our new life I always try to force myself to find a Biblical word for the concept. Now Jimmy, what Biblical word would you substitute for 'identity'? ;-)


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Ron Bailey

 2012/3/30 16:28Profile









 Re: Starting Over with a New Identity

Jimmy, this is really good. Why would we desire our old identity, it is a grievous burden. Reading your post, the Lord reminded me of the words of this song:

Loved with everlasting love, led by grace that love to know;
Gracious Spirit from above, Thou hast taught me it is so!
O this full and perfect peace! O this transport all divine!
In a love which cannot cease, I am His, and He is mine.

Heav’n above is softer blue, Earth around is sweeter green!
Something lives in every hue Christless eyes have never seen;
Birds with gladder songs o’erflow, flowers with deeper beauties shine,
Since I know, as now I know, I am His, and He is mine.

Things that once were wild alarms cannot now disturb my rest;
Closed in everlasting arms, pillowed on the loving breast.
O to lie forever here, doubt and care and self resign,
While He whispers in my ear, I am His, and He is mine.

His forever, only His; Who the Lord and me shall part?
Ah, with what a rest of bliss Christ can fill the loving heart!
Heav’n and earth may fade and flee, firstborn light in gloom decline;
But while God and I shall be, I am His, and He is mine.
But while God and I shall be, I am His, and He is mine.

 2012/3/30 16:41
Compton
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Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

Quote:
How else can we identify it? And if you can’t identify it – can you really conquer its power over you?



Interesting. Unraveling who we are not, to see who we are.

At the end of our lives, some of us may find that we have wrapped ourselves in so many idealistic disguises that who's revealed underneath is actually a stranger to us. In a very real way, a person who dies and stands before God is actually going to have to finally face not just one being, but two beings for the very first time; God and themselves.

"So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God. Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way." Romans 14

MC



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Mike Compton

 2012/3/30 16:43Profile
roadsign
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Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


 Re:

Quote:
Why would we desire our old identity,


I include a link to “Letters to Jessica” which I think, at least in part, answers this question. Here is a thought-provoking set of letters written to a child:

http://letterstojessica.embassyofheaven.com/index.htm by Robert Bissett


Here’s some quotes from it:

“Grownups like to play make-believe just as much as children. Only they do not admit they are playing a game.”

“Grownups have been tricked into obeying the laws of humbugs, rather than the laws of God. When Americans stopped believing that God rules them and the world, Americans stopped being free. That means they are slaves to the humbugs and ruled by wizards."

“Over all these Great Wizards is one Supreme Wizard called the United States, which is imagined to rule over all of America.”


Diane




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Diane

 2012/3/30 17:23Profile
KingJimmy
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Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:

So with so many scripts for us to pick from...it's no wonder we have a hard time knowing who we really are. :)



The concept of a "narrative" is definitely crucial. You see this demonstrated wonderfully, especially in the Old Testament. The historical books were written to further a particular narrative. And the prophets were raised up continually to remind Israel of her roll in the great redemptive narrative that God was writing. And still yet today, we are called to continue on in this task, of telling of God's redemption story, and to invite men to participate in the ultimate cosmic drama :-)


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Jimmy H

 2012/3/30 18:06Profile
KingJimmy
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Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:

Brother Jimmy, I believe that we become or identify with what we read. What books or writings that we read, relate to or prefer. Of all things, I believe that shapes and defines our identities more than anything else on earth.



Absolutely. Without trying to sound like a heretic, I think such things constitute a "personal canon" if you will.


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Jimmy H

 2012/3/30 18:08Profile
Compton
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Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

Quote:
That means they are slaves to the humbugs and ruled by wizards."



Raises an interesting point...for thousands of years the identity of a person could be established according to who their "master" was. Perhaps the concept is unchanging, and only the form of the "master" changes from person to cause to thing.

Tolstoy has some interesting thoughts on this topic. Here is a passage where he demonstrates how one is defined by the object of their fidelity. And he also touches on the "game" that adults play, including the "dress-up" costume.. (showing how we are caught in our own models and narratives.)

"In 1892, the same William, the Enfant Terrible of state authority, who says plainly what other people only think, in addressing some soldiers gave public utterance to the following speech, which was reported next day in thousands of newspapers: "Conscripts!" he said, "you have sworn fidelity to ME before the altar and the minister of God! You are still too young to understand all the importance of what has been said here; let your care before all things be to obey the orders and instructions given you. You have sworn fidelity TO ME, lads of my guard; That means you are now my soldiers, that you have given yourselves to me body and soul. For their is now but one enemy, MY enemy...it may come to pass to that I command you to fire on your own kindred, your brothers, even your own fathers and mothers---which God forbid! ---Even then you are bound to obey my order without hesitation."

"All the young men through the whole of Europe are exposed year after year to this test, and with very few exceptions they renounce all that a man can hold sacred, all express their readiness to kill their brothers, even their fathers, at the bidding of the first crazy creature dressed up in a livery with red and gold trimming, and only wait to be told where and when they are to kill. And they actually are ready.

"They say to him: "You must become my slave, and this slavery may force you to kill even your own father;" and he, often very well educated, trained in all the sciences at the university, quietly puts his head under the yoke. They dress him up in a clown's costume, and order him to cut capers, turn and twist and bow, and kill--he does it all submissively. And when they let him go, he seems to shake himself and go back to his former life, and he continues to discourse upon the dignity of man, liberty, equality, and fraternity as before."

MC


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Mike Compton

 2012/3/30 18:18Profile
KingJimmy
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Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:

On that note, I personally feel the modern Christian bookstore is rife with identity confusion.



I never feel at home or comfortable at most Christian book stores.

Quote:

We can imagine the problems we set up for people's identities when, in the name of "cultural relevancy" we try to live half way between worldly frameworks and biblical frameworks...some netherworld where identity remains filled with contradiction.



I think this is a major issue. You see it with a lot of contemporary church plants these days. Whether the pastor is 25 years old or 50, most of them are trying so hard to be "cool" and "trendy." Thus, many for the first time in their lives start putting gel in their hair, wearing skinny jeans, and listening to U2. Many are trying so hard to be somebody else, instead of simply conforming themselves to the image of Christ.

Quote:

How often do we take away these remarkable narratives from one another and offer our own miserable fiction instead...just because of someone's political affiliations, their country of birth, their denominations, or their economic situation?

We take these biblical narratives away from others because they probably aren't real enough to even ourselves. What is real to us is this world, and so we interpret one another through the lens of this world.



What a great question. I think you've hit the nail on the head here. And you've provided an equally great answer. We sell alternative visions and narratives because we've yet to latch ourselves onto the narrative of Scripture. We invent these stories because there is just something in our walk that identifies itself with the narrative that runs through Scripture. We lack "reality."

It grieves me to no end to hear somebody preaching on the gospel message of whom you can tell the message is just doctrine for them. There is a terrible sense that the man speaking is just performing something, and saying the right words, because he knows he has to say them. He lacks an apparent "grip" on his heart and mind that causes me to believe many really don't even get or understand in their depths what it is they are saying. They believe what they are saying. And they say it because they know they must. But you can tell it is a story which has yet to truly disturb them. There remains a disconnect between the words they are saying and the lives they are living.

And I think we choose these other narratives because we don't want to be disturbed. We as a church give birth to one vision after the next, because the reality of the vision we have been already given is just too terrible for us, and the place we are at in our lives. We want to remain comfortable. We don't want to truly turn aside to see, for we know truly seeing will bring about the end of us, and we find that too great of a cost.


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Jimmy H

 2012/3/30 18:33Profile
KingJimmy
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Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:

When considering the Biblical implications of our new life I always try to force myself to find a Biblical word for the concept. Now Jimmy, what Biblical word would you substitute for 'identity'? ;-)



LOL. Great question Ron. Some "Biblical" words for this would be "likeness" and "image."


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Jimmy H

 2012/3/30 18:35Profile
Compton
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Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

Occasionally, when the conversation of identity comes up, the idea of personal annihilation sometimes comes up. The idea goes something along the lines that the person we are should cease to exist and literally be "replaced" by Christ.

"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me." Gal.2:20

Is it the New Testament's concept of life that we are to be annihilated as individuals so that Christ may instead occupy our space?

Here is a verse that, to me at least, suggests otherwise.

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it." Revelation 2:17

It seems to me that important part of the Biblical concept of life is that there is a persistent person known only by God and that person.

In agreement with Jimmy's original post, the reconciliation between these two verses is found somewhere in the persistent picture of the "New Man". I welcome better insights then mine, but basically I feel the New Man is talking about a literal merger of Christ and our persons.

"We know that our old man was crucified with him so that the body of sin would no longer dominate us, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin."

"He did this to create in himself one new man out of two, thus making peace,"

"...put on the new man who has been created in God’s image– in righteousness and holiness that comes from truth."

"Do not lie to one another since you have put off the old man with its practices and have been clothed with the new man that is being renewed in knowledge according to the image of the one who created it. Here there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all and in all."

MC


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Mike Compton

 2012/3/30 18:48Profile





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