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old joe you do not know the ""whole counsel of God." It is obvious by what you are saying that you have your own little doctrine that is different from Gods.

 2012/3/24 18:20

Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 1865


how can a preacher call on people to repent from sin toward god ,in jesus name with out explaining what repent means ,,and with out explaining what sin is

it is imposable ,,one must by the mercy of god explain how men have trangressed gods holy requirment ,,he must define sin ,,or he is blaspheming ,,useing the lords name in vain

how can the gosple be preached with out repentance
it cant ,that is why in the gopsle we see alist of beseting sins that one must turn from

homasexuality and sodomy ,fornacation ect ,is part of the list

 2012/3/24 18:46Profile

 Re: Pastor Faces Federal Suit for Sharing Views on Homosexuality

Did you read the article, Joe or Diane? This is WAY bigger than I think you realize. This man is only alive by GOD's grace and if you'd do a Search on this " Alien Tort Statute " you may see that it's not far from being used as something as close to the World Court as it can get.

THAT MEANS, that if this man loses this case - it sets a PRECEDENT in the FEDERAL COURT deeming what this man has said against homosexuality AND pornography as a crime against "International Law".

THAT MEANS that, anyone who quotes the Bible where these sins are listed are ............... you fill in the blank.

Freedom of speech will be deemed gone because some Ugandans have gone totally RADICAL and are KILLING HOMOSEXUALS and trying to blame this man for these actions of the Ugandan Government.

This man is and has been a target by more groups than one would imagine, right here in the U.S..

And Joe, do you still want to talk about who is being a "coward" by not putting their last name on the internet - as you've condemn to hell the vast majority of Christians that post on this forum and thousands of other forums world-wide?

The "cowards" will be those that will be afraid to say that they are a Christian that believes that the Whole of The Bible is The Innerant WORD of GOD.

And Joe, the Government knows my full name and IP#, etc. and in my 10 yrs on and offline - I've never feared them, as I've posted on many forums during those years and things that I'm sure will have me beheaded eventually - unless He takes me Home another way.

Who will be tomorrow's cowards?

 2012/3/24 22:04



John Newton was fully acceptable before God as well, even while he continued the slave trade. What he did was not acceptable, and neither is what you do, nor what I do, nor what the sodomite does. On that ground we are all equal.

I agree with rebuking sin and I am here rebuking the sin of the religious, the same way it has been done before.

“He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone”

If the pastor wants to rebuke sin, let him start at the sins of his best people starting with himself, and deal with what Jim calls secret 'faults' (meaning secret ‘sins’ really but for some the word is too hard to say). Sure sodomy and fornication are sins, but what do you expect openly lost people to do? They know nothing other than sin!!! They are in more need of a Saviour than a rebuke. Now the openly religious on the other hand, THEY are in need of rebukes, because they claim to know better.


 2012/3/25 0:18


I'm sure will have me beheaded eventually

You are actually no threat to the Antichrist religious system, rather than losing your head, you might even be promoted!


 2012/3/25 0:26


Wow... and people call me judgemental? Seriously?

Look folks, we are to proclaim the gospel. Part of that is shining the light on sin. If we do not, how does a man come to the realization that he has offended a thrice holy God?

Part of that is naming sin. Calling it out.

I do believe there are varying degrees of sin, although any sin condemns our soul. One thing everyone needs to understand is that according to Romans chapter 1 homosexuality is listed and described in detail as what takes place often times when God gives one over to their own sin and lust.

Romans 1:24-27 "Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen. FOR THIS REASON God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error."

Homosexuality is actually described here as a PUNISHMENT handed down from God... not just a sin.

The verses immediately following list other sins as well, but if you look at that list those sins are sins that every unbeliever is filled with. They were increased by God as a result of their rebellion. Why would He do this? To increase their guilt. God says "OK, if thats what you want, you can have it ten-fold". We see God doing this with the nation of Israel in the OT at times.

But homosexuality was singled out and described in detail.

I know some of you may disagree and want to debate me about that... I dont care. One thing I am not going to participate in any more is debates with people when scripture is abundantly clear about what it is saying.

Anyway, to say that a preacher, missionary, evangelist, or even an everyday believe should not call out sin by name when presenting the gospel is FOOLISHNESS. You will not find one single verse in scripture to support that. You will not even find a principle or a precedence for that in scripture. In fact, you find just the opposite.


 2012/3/25 6:02

Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri


Beloved, I guess that leaves just one question; what are we to do with 1 Cor. 6:9, 10, Gal. 5:21, Revelation 22:15, etc, if these type sins do not damn a persons soul? If these passages do not pertain to the saints, then to whom do they pertain to?

1 Cor. 6:9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites,

1Cor. 6:10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

1Cor. 6:11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

1 Cor. 1:2 gives us the address of the letter,.. "Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours." Is there a group within this group that somehow are exempt from 1 Cor. 6:9, 10? Surely we come in, in the, "...with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours." That's me. I am among the "all that in every place call on the name of the Lord."

Was Paul mistaken? Did he not know that to repent of such sins would constitute salvation by works and that it would no longer be grace? It seems that in telling us not to be deceived, he seems to have been deceived himself; that is, if he taught that those living in such sins as he lists had no present hope of entering the Kingdom, when in fact they are unconditionally saved.

And if the warnings don't pertain to me, what hope do I have of believing the promises or accepting the teachings? I understand that each epistle has an address, etc. I also see that forgiveness is conditional based on Matthew 18:35. Parabolically, a certain man had secured forgiveness only to have it reneged. What am I to make of those 'type' passages? Do they not pertain to me? And if not then is there a list we can turn to of what does and does not pertain to the believer today?

A.T. Robertson gives this exegesis of 1 Cor. 6:9, 10 and directly answer the question; The unrighteous (adikoi). To remind them of the verb adikew just used. The Kingdom of God (qeou basileian). Precisely, God's kingdom. Be not deceived (mh planasqe). Present passive imperative with negative mh. Do not be led astray by plausible talk to cover up sin as mere animal behaviourism.

Paul has two lists in verses Colossians, one with repetition of oute, neither (fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, effeminate, or malakoi, abusers of themselves with men or arsenokoitai or sodomites as in 1 Timothy 1:10 a late word for this horrid vice, thieves, covetous), the other with ou not (drunkards, revilers, extortioners).

All these will fall short of the kingdom of God. This was plain talk to a city like Corinth. It is needed today. It is a solemn roll call of the damned even if some of their names are on the church roll in Corinth whether officers or ordinary members. (End of quote)

He who conceals his sins does not prosper, but whoever confesses and renounces them finds mercy. (Proverbs 28:13 NIV)

What use is it to fabricate a theology that widens the narrow gate? We have already been told plainly;

Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. (Galatians 5 NKJV)

How many times does Paul have to say it? "I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God." It's almost like these people refused to listen. If my math is right, this is now the third time he is telling the Galatians this truth. Paul told the Corinthians, "Do not be deceived." This list has gone out to the Galatians, Corinthians and Colossians. Given that Galatians and Corinthians were written from Ephesus, we can safely assume that he had told them repeatedly the same thing. Was it Paul only?

He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” (Rev. 21:7, 8)

Its as if God made sure everyone was clear on it. Perhaps you missed the lists in all of Paul's writings, you will meet this list at the gates of Heaven. To transgress such revelation is to deceive and damn ones own soul.

Robert Wurtz II

 2012/3/25 9:09Profile


Old joe said:
"I agree with rebuking sin and I am here rebuking the sin of the religious, the same way it has been done before."

Amen - we are never to judge the outsider but the professing christian (1 Cor 5). If this is your position here you could have made it a little clearer. I think most assumed you were talking about a church member that continues in willful sin all the days of their life.

Old joe said:
"If the pastor wants to rebuke sin, let him start at the sins of his best people starting with himself"

What if he is walking in humility and in a state of no known sin?

Old joe said:
, and deal with what Jim calls secret 'faults' (meaning secret ‘sins’ really but for some the word is too hard to say).

I am not afraid to say sin brother - hope you didnt take it that way - I was actually quoting the title of a carter conlon message here at SI.

Old joe said:
Sure sodomy and fornication are sins, but what do you expect openly lost people to do?

To walk in sin... but the lines in this thread seem to be blurred to where that is what born again believers are expected to do is to walk in sin too?

 2012/3/25 9:23


Good post Robert.

How many places are we warned in the NT - Do Not Be Deceived ... such professing Christians are headed for hell.

1 Corinthians 6
1 john 3
Galatains 5

Obviously people are prone to be deceived in this area.

In Christ -Jim

 2012/3/25 9:26

Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


This is WAY bigger than I think you realize.

Actually, this is a far bigger problem than YOU realize – or any of us. Presently the homosexual issue is dividing the church on a global level – all around the world. No one is escaping this world crisis. This news report is an example of how serious it can get.

In the crisis there is a lot of sin piling up on top of sin – and everybody typically sees everybody else’s sins better than their own. (Could that be a safe generalization to make?)

To me, one of the most insightful points here is Krispy’s:
Homosexuality is actually described here as a PUNISHMENT handed down from God... not just a sin.

So let’s get a grip on the bigger picture: the horrendous sin effects of humanity – and God’s way of treating it! Look what GOD does in Romans 1! Don’t you find that intensely catastrophic? But look in Romans 11at what God does to his own who fall away: “He gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes so that they could not see, and ears so that they could not hear….” :7 Might we ourselves not be a tad bit beset by the effects of divine judgment too – even in trying to get a grip on this very topic?

So why does God handle human rebelliousness so drastically? Scripture tell us … and understanding that is going to be very helpful here. ….

If only we could move past our society’s individualistic view of people, we’d see that no one is an island to himself. Each of us is shaped by the world we live in – hugely. So are gays.

Thankfully we have godly leaders today trying to take a step back and see homosexuality in a bigger picture – including society, patterns in family life, etc. They are diligently working to offer the church a better grip on the issue – along with the other current sin issues. The crisis is forcing people to think about it – and I’m excited about that. I think it will draw us back to the good news of Christ – and see why it is such good news.

Here’s a thought: Just because one wishes to consider the wider implications of this problem doesn’t mean they are wimps or downgrading the seriousness of sin. Quite the converse! I’d say, those who prefer only to consider the surface behaviors of homosexuality are the ones diminishing the depth of sinfulness – even as they may accuse others for doing that. For those who cling to a surface perspective, God’s solution will never apply deeper than a bandaid. So much for the transformative power of divine grace!

On the other hand, the “risk” of looking at the bigger picture is that you are going to see yourself in it – both as part of the human sin problem – but also as a responsible part of the solution. And as they say, if you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem. Right?

“For Christ’s love compels us….”1 Cor. 5: 14

I wonder: How will God unite his people into being instruments of his victorious news for the sinners?



 2012/3/25 14:35Profile

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