| Re: |
Wow! never thought I would have started a riot, anyway I am sticking to my guns on this, I still think he is a great leader. Remember we all came from dirt, so we all have a little dirt on us.
| 2012/3/9 9:57||Profile|
| My two mites.|
I kind of liked the old article about Netenyahu, and wanted to hear some ideas about him. How this could U turn into whatever it is, a personal chat/offense is sad to me.
This needs to stop overall, and folks need not to take things, and differences, so seriously...and not react hatefully to the one who has opposed their view. Strife breeds chaos, and does not fit into a Godly discussion forum, especially when the venom gears up.
Also, this idea of misunderstanding can be taken into the paranoia realm...and every thought about it does NOT need to be addressed. Exchange e-mails or drop it, would be the best FOR OTHERS who may want to follow the thread, without the negative drama.
| 2012/3/9 11:10|
| Re: My two mites.|
I agree Brothertom, man Jim just all over this like a school of piranha's. I personally feel there is a gentler/more diplomatic way to express ourselves. As I said we all have a little dirt, but maybe some don't, and can judge accordingly.
| 2012/3/9 11:32||Profile|
| Re: |
I apologize for personally posting to someone else in trying to correct them in what I have perceived to be where they are wrong. I hope I have learned a lesson because it only creates more opposition. I will refrain in the future by bringing points of views without personally trying to correct someone by using their name as posting directly to them.
Brothertom, I do pray for the peace of Israel and also that many will come to know Jesus as the true messiah. My desire for the prime minister is truly for His salvation and I also believe he does care for the nation of Israel even though He is in darkness concerning the true plan of the God of Israel. I also understand as I know you do the true spiritual Israel of God. Blessings
| 2012/3/9 11:42||Profile|
| Re: |
Perhaps the thread started "Is Patriotism Idokitry" would be a better place to discuss the matters of one's Christianity and patriotism.
Personally J admire Benjamin Natanyaho. He shows courage and fortitude in leading Israel. At least he is not tking about wiping nations off the face of the earth as Iran is doing. But make no mistake. Should Iran attack Israel, Tehran will be seeing shock and awe. Nay peace prevail.
I understand BB Netanyaho has a morning Bible study in his home. May he find Jesus as his messiah.
| 2012/3/9 13:38|
North Central Florida
| Re: |
martyr said, "I understand BB Netanyaho has a morning Bible study in his home. May he find Jesus as his messiah."
I second that. I am encouraged to read of his studies.
| 2012/3/9 14:12||Profile|
| Re: |
Chris said "Maybe you could further explain what you mean by "patriotic idolatry." It is easy to say such things...and for many people to agree due to the ambiguous nature of what you say. After all, everyone opposes "idolatry." However, you haven't actually defined what you mean by the term."
Brother - some more of my thoughts over at the andrew strom thread per blaines suggestion. Brother, I relly meant it when I said to you earlier on the Franklim Graham thread that I do not consider it idolatry to vote... I am talking about something much bigger than that. God bless you brother. Jim
| 2012/3/9 21:22|
| Re: |
Hi Brother Jim,
I did read through your posts in that other thread, but you still haven't appeared to fully define what it is that you mean. At what point do you think that people are engaging in "patriotic idolatry?" What are the "symptoms" that concern you. Is there a revealing display of actions or some other means to measure what you feel to be the limits of involvement?
I did read where you mentioned the pledge of allegiance. However, I know many individuals who place God before country (even the armed forces mention "God and country" in writing). I would hardly try to lump them together with "idolaters" simply for holding a degree of respect, honor or allegiance to the country of their temporary citizenship.
When I work for a company with my "secular" job, I strive to do my best. I work as if I were doing it for the Lord. I participate in certain decision-making processes for that company. I try to make that company succeed on many different levels...especially since I believe that God placed me there. Consequently, the Lord uses the company as a tool to provide for the needs of my family through an income.
In a much bigger scale, God placed us in the countries of our temporary dwelling. I personally find no problem with participating in the various decision making processes -- even in elected offices -- in the attempt to make that country "of the people, by the people, for the people" better. It isn't just about "voting." It can even include participation...or petitioning "unjust judges."
Personally, I see no Scriptural prohibition with a believer who serves in public positions -- including judges, police officers, military men, Congressmen or even the presidency. I believe that it is possible to maintain your relationship with God even while operating in such a position of public service or authority.
Now, I understand that it is possible to make your country your idol. However, a person can make ANYTHING an idol -- including "ministry."
I have known ministers who confided that they had turned a "call" into a "career." They were worried about paychecks and compensation from "full-time ministry" being enough to pay for a house, car, other bills and even retirement.
Still, I am having a difficult time understanding your definition of what you call "patriotic idolatry."
Yes, there may be individuals who overly indulge with country and may even unwittingly place it before God. However, most of the individuals who are slurred (it is now used as a "slur" by some) as being in the "religious right" are merely sincere believers who actively participate in voicing their opinions about ISSUES of righteousness and unrighteousness.
This is why I wanted to know how you would define or even "measure" what you call patriotic idolatry. I am concerned that you might lump some good believers who participate in trying to make this country a better place (even on a natural or "righteousness v. unrighteousness" level) together with real idolaters.
I feel that I can work in a "secular job" as unto the Lord and still maintain my faith. Similarly, I think that it is possible for believers to participate in various aspects of government and decision making while maintaining an intimate relationship with the Lord. However, I would be interested in understanding what you feel to be the limits of Christian involvement to the point that they meander into "patriotic idolatry."
By the way, I pray that you know that I am sincere in this question and discussion. I am not trying to be contentious about it whatsoever.
May the Lord bless you too, brother Jim.
| 2012/3/10 0:12||Profile|
| Re: |
I've read Jim's posts as well and think that I know where he's coming from with his "patriotic idolatry" and "nation worship" statements and agree with him in some regard. We sometimes blend Christendom with nationalism to the point we believe they are one and the same. And while Romans 13:1-7 makes it clear that we are to be subject to governmental authority and thus be "good patriots" we are Christians first and foremost. Some want to associate a particular political party with Christianity and believe if we can simply have them in the majority then we will be back on the path to becoming a righteous nation when in reality there is little substantive change regardless of which party is the majority and both have had their chances in recent years. I do believe this should awaken us to the reality that should we pray first and vote second.
German Christians struggled with patriotism versus Christian conviction during WWII. The people were forced to make the choice of maintaining an allegiance to their Mother Germany or the God of the Bible. Study the life of Dietrich Bonhoeffer. He wrestled with the situation greatly and realizing his country was on the road to ruin began a crusade to save Germany from the clutches of evil and was ultimately martyred for the cause of Christ.
While America hasn't regressed into Nazism, the struggle of the believer to separate our patriotism from our Christian faith still exists. Does our allegiance to Christ mean that we forfeit our love for the country in which God has placed us? Absolutely not! And this, my dear brother Jim, is where we differ. Bonhoeffer grieved over what was happening to his homeland greatly. He loved Germany just like the prophets of old loved the nation of Israel as God also loves her. Have you not read Jeremiah or where Daniel bowed towards Jerusalem three times a day? Or, how our Lord cried over Jerusalem not recognizing the hour of her visitation? Israel was, and as the Bible prophesies, is a real, honest to goodness country and the alliances formed by countries who oppose her are exactly as the Bible states as well (see Ezekiel 38). Do not fall in the trap of over-spiritualizing, as some have, the nature of who Israel is and know this - she is a genuine piece of real estate and is as much a country as any upon the face of the earth and remains the apple of God's eye. Praise be to God!
And as much as some have tried to encourage me to leave the United States for another country that has "more favor with God" I am as American as one will find and thank God every day for it. But, I also know that only God can save our country - no politician can do it, no political system can do it, and no form of government can do it. Only God can and when we reach the full realization of that fact it should drive each of us to our knees to acknowledge the awesome responsibility that we have as Christians to petition God for our nation. This country will only be as godly and righteous as we Christians enable it to be. We can blame no one else. We are called to be light in a dark place and when we refuse to shine forth that light what else can we expect. Please read II Chronicles 7:14 again closely. "If MY PEOPLE, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land". What will happen should we refuse to fulfill the call of this passage? I think we see the results of that for ourselves and don't think that God won't hold us accountable. And Jim, we can replace "land" with "nation" and not harm the text one iota. I don't believe it to be "nation worship" rather our godly responsibility to the land/nation in which God has placed us.
| 2012/3/10 4:08||Profile|