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WayneFerrel
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Joined: 2005/1/21
Posts: 18
Raytown, MO

 Matthew 17:16-21

In this passage Jesus tells the disciples that because of there unbelief they could not cast the devil out.
If that is the case what does vs.21 mean? Whats comes out by prayer and fasting?
Wayne


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Wayne Ferrel

 2005/1/27 17:10Profile
PreachParsly
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Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Re: Matthew 17:16-21

Mat 17:20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

Mat 17:21 Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.

Well in the previous scripture he was talking about faith. I think in vs 21 he is also talking about faith. I think placing the words "of faith" between kind and goeth (Howbeit this kind of faith goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.) doesnt change what Jesus means. Prayer builds up faith (Jud 1:20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,) and when i think of a fast i think of putting something down to spend more time with God ie prayer and the Word. Prayer and the Word builds faith. Thats what I belive he is talking about, but I will deffinately hear what someone else thinks. By the way I am very reluctant to be putting words inbetween Words of Scripture but I belive that is what He is refering to.


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Josh Parsley

 2005/1/27 17:28Profile
Jimm
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Joined: 2004/4/27
Posts: 498
Harare, ZIMBABWE

 Faith, prayer and fasting

Hey Wayne

Preachparsley seems to have the word on this. I agree with him entirely. I think the key to this passage is the word [i]howbeit[/i] or [i]but[/i]

Mathew 17:19 Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out? 20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you. 21 [b]Howbeit[/b] this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting. KJV

Mathew17 And Jesus answered and said, "You unbelieving and perverted generation, how long shall I be with you? How long shall I put up with you? Bring him here to Me." 18 And Jesus rebuked him, and the demon came out of him, and the boy was cured at once. 19 Then the disciples came to Jesus privately and said, "Why could we not drive it out?" 20 And He said to them, "Because of the littleness of your faith; for truly I say to you, if you have faith the size of a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, `Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you. 21 "[b]But[/b] this kind does not go out except by prayer and fasting." NAS

Depending on how you read it, it looks to these words are saying that, prayer and fasting are separate from faith. If you read it in one breath it looks like what his he is saying is that, you need faith [i]but[/i] (in light of what I have said) you must manifest your faith through prayer and fasting.

James


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James Gabriel Gondai Dziya

 2005/1/27 17:37Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Mat 17:21 Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.

Well in the previous scripture he was talking about faith. I think in vs 21 he is also talking about faith. I think placing the words "of faith" between kind and goeth (Howbeit this kind of faith goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.) doesnt change what Jesus means.


Hi Preach
I think you have hold of the wrong end of the stick here. the word 'kind' is genos. This is the word we have in 'genus' meaning 'a kind or class having common characteristics'. The 'kind' referred to is not the 'kind of faith' but the 'kind of demon'.

There was something about this particular demonic presence which required time spent alone with God in prayer and fasting. It may have reference to the longstanding nature of the condition, or to the particular kind of 'demonisation', but it can't be referring to a 'kind of faith'.

[b]Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast it out? And he saith unto them, Because of your little faith: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you. But this kind goeth not out save by prayer and fasting. (Mat 17:19-21 ASV)[/b] In other words, this kind of spirit will only respond to a man who has been prepared for the task by prayer and fasting.


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Ron Bailey

 2005/1/27 18:16Profile
Nasher
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Joined: 2003/7/28
Posts: 404
Watford, UK

 Re:

Quote:
In other words, this kind of spirit will only respond to a man who has been prepared for the task by prayer and fasting.



Are you saying that when someone finds a spirit like this they should go and pray and fast to cast it out? (I don't think you are btw ;-) ), or are you saying that a man's "walk with God" should include much prayer and fasting so that when he does come up against a spirit like this he can immediately (with a prayer of course) cast it out?

Or something else?


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Mark Nash

 2005/1/28 2:47Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Either, but preferably the latter of your two suggestions. I think there is an indication that the apostles were 'not up to this' at this particular time although the Lord had earlier rebuked them for their unbelief. There are indications elsewhere that the apostles did not fast prior to his ascension.


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Ron Bailey

 2005/1/28 3:12Profile
WayneFerrel
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Joined: 2005/1/21
Posts: 18
Raytown, MO

 Re:

In Mark 9:14-29, Mark records the same event, and there is no mention of there unbelief
in verse 29, "this kind can come forth by nothing, but by prayer and fasting.
My Bible cross references James 5:16, wich refers to the effectual fervant prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
I believe this means that some things we come in contact with require more time in prayer, and some fasting to overcome than other things do.
I have been told that fasting is prayer without words


Wayne


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Wayne Ferrel

 2005/1/28 7:21Profile
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Joined: 2003/7/28
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Watford, UK

 Re:

Quote:
There are indications elsewhere that the apostles did not fast prior to his ascension.



Would you say that Christians should fast (and pray) on a "regular" basis and not just when something arises they think needs prayer etc?


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Mark Nash

 2005/1/28 7:38Profile
WayneFerrel
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Joined: 2005/1/21
Posts: 18
Raytown, MO

 Re:

if we are to be instant in season and out, I think we should have a consistent life of prayer and fasting.
Should we fast only when directed by God, or on our own?
Wayne


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Wayne Ferrel

 2005/1/28 8:06Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Hi Wayne,

Here I go out on a limb:

And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your sons cast them out? therefore shall they be your judges. But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you. (Luke 11:19, 20) I have seen in this and other passages that there seems to be a direct correlation between our submission to God and the authority with which we could cast out such a Devil. We are all familiar with the passage; Submit yourselves therefore unto God, resist the devil and he will flee from you. The born again experience allows one to see the Kingdom of God; that is, it brings them under the dominion of the King of the Kingdom (Jesus Christ). The demon spoke to the sons of Sceeva "Paul I know and Jesus I know, but who are you?" They had said to the demon, "We adjure by Jesus whom Paul preacheth." They had no intimate knowledge of Jesus; to them He was not even an aquaintence. In other words, they were not members of the Kingdom under the King's dominion and therefore the Kingdom of God was no where to be found when they spoke in Jesus' name. So how does this work that one believer may have the authority to cast out a particular demon that another does not?

Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God. Yet, faith is the right response to the revealed will of God. It is not faith by simply hearing; faith cometh by hearing. The revelation of God comes and with it an opportunity to exercise faith. Faith without works is dead. God reveals His will, we respond rightly and it is faith.

Now, Jesus said "my meat is to do the will of Him that sent me." (John 4:34) That is, when He does the will of the Father, it is as 'meat' to Him. Jesus was fasting for 40 days, but had a meat to eat that the disciples knew not of. He was saying 'no' to His bodily appetite for food and 'yes' to His spiritual appetite to do the will of the Father. His submission was not to His bodily appetites, but to the will of God. In this He became utterly submitted to God. It was His 'meat.' We are told to desire the sincere milk of the Word that we may frow thereby (I Peter 2). Milk is for babies (Hebrews 5:14). The milk is the revelation of simple things that I believe are part of the foundation that is not to be relayed over and over again (repentance from dead works, faith towards God, doctrine of baptisms, etc.). It is the 'milk' or the revelation of things that are to be partaken of as babes; yet we are to go on unto perfection or Spiritual Adulthood by moving to a stage of growth where we are living on the 'meat'. The Saints in Hebrews 5 had to go back on the milk because they did not control their senses. They must have endulged themselves until their meat was all manor of fleshly appetites and not the will of God. On the other hand, if we take this the opposite way and do as did Jesus and allow our meat to be the 'will of the Father' and keep those appetites mortified by the Holy Ghost- we will grow in our submission to God. This increases our submission to God and therefor our authority to cast out devils. In other words, because of our deep submission to the King, the Kingdom of God is within us and is therefor in the midst of all we are around.

I have a simple axiom that states that our level of authority in the Kingdom of God is directly proportional to our submission to the King. Can we expect a demon to be in subjection to the King whom's name we are adjuring by when we are not in submission ourself? Clearly some devils can resist to a certain thresh hold beyond others and it requires that we find a place of genuine submission to the King that we might by the finger of God bring the Kingdom of God and His authority nigh unto the one distressed and possessed.

Hope that makes sense.

God Bless,

-Robert


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Robert Wurtz II

 2005/1/28 8:32Profile





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