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Discussion Forum : General Topics : New Book Released: The Better Covenant by Ron Bailey

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philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

by krautfrau on 2012/3/7 10:01:24
"The two covenants as I understand it, are both in force, the old one applies when a believer has not entered fully into His rest.

Now I am not clear on the terms you have used ie conversion, regeneration and sanctification. Can you be more specific please? Thanks"

I think this is the line that Andrew Murray takes in his book The Two Covenants. I think his book is great but I think he is wrong here. The Old Covenant, as I tried to spell out in TBC, was a specific agreement between God and the nation of Israel initiated at Sinai and terminated at Calvary. I don't believe the specific curses or blessings of the Old Covenant are still in operation so I do see the New Covenant as both a fulfilment and a replacement of the Old Covenant. The Old Covenant has a very definite start AND finish date. Gal 3:19. The Old Covenant was 'added' and only 'till'.

Back later with the other half.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2012/3/15 6:32Profile









 Re:

"I think this is the line that Andrew Murray takes in his book The Two Covenants."

If this is so, then I dont think he is being consistant as along with other Keswickians, he does not believe in `destroyed` rather, he believes in `subdued` when we are talking about the old nature. Nor, may I say, do I think you are either.

In the New Covenant, man is restored to what God intended for him from the start. He would have that as his nature, walking as Adam walked but on a higher plane, as Adam was merely innocent not holy. Now, under the New Covenant man is holy as He is holy. They share the same nature. Keswick theology did not accept that in its logical conclusion and claimed that man can still sin, albeit with repentance following and remain in the garden of Eden despite seeing Adam being removed from it when he sinned.

The rituals of the OC, I believe were a shadow but the law still stands,if a man sins then he dies that is spiritually. If he is deliverd by the blood of Christ, from the sin nature and the need for sin. He is free and in the NC as some of the OT saints were also and only through faith. There is no dividing line in time, the new was there in OT times andthe old is there amongst those who are carnal.

 2012/3/17 18:51
deltadom
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Joined: 2005/1/6
Posts: 2359
Hemel Hempstead

 Re:

I need to read it


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Dominic Shiells

 2012/3/17 19:30Profile
learjet
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Joined: 2010/4/19
Posts: 447


 Re: New Book Released: The Better Covenant by Ron Bailey

Hi Ron,

Picked up the book tonight on Kindle, looking forward to reading it!

 2012/3/17 21:55Profile
roadsign
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Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


 Re:

Hi Ron, My book just arrived.

Was ordered Feb. 29, arrived Mar 16.

Looks exciting - but not casual bedtime reading.

Diane


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Diane

 2012/3/17 22:11Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Keswick occasionally allowed 'eradication' speakers. I think Reader Harris spoke at Keswick.

"The rituals of the OC, I believe were a shadow but the law still stands,if a man sins then he dies that is spiritually. If he is deliverd by the blood of Christ, from the sin nature and the need for sin. He is free and in the NC as some of the OT saints were also and only through faith. There is no dividing line in time, the new was there in OT times andthe old is there amongst those who are carnal."
The universal moral law still stands, the work of the law written in hearts, but I think the NT emphasis on the law is somewhat different. We fulfil the righteousness requirements of the law my walking in the Spirit rather than my adhering to the written ordinances and rules.

My understanding of this is influenced by the reference in James that "if we know to do good and do not do it, then 'to that man' it is sin." This is why I say that the key is revelation. Faith is right response to revelation; sin is wrong response to revelation. I man can respond to neither unless there is revelation. That doesn't mean I excuse murder, all men have the revelation of the 'work of the law' but the specific details of the Sinai version of universal moral law are not valid outside the Old Covenant nor outside the 'Holy' Land.


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Ron Bailey

 2012/3/20 15:18Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

I have had a few readers who tell me that they read it through quickly to get the gist of it and are now working their way through more slowly. I am very happy if it gets two readings. Part of the reason for the end of chapter summaries is to encourage folk to think through what they are reading.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2012/3/20 15:19Profile









 Re:

"We fulfil the righteousness requirements of the law my walking in the Spirit rather than my adhering to the written ordinances and rules."

Indeed but my point is that it was the same in the Old Testament. Those like Abraham trusted in God to save them and walked by faith and not by trusting in their ability to keep the law which is how most of the Jews understood the requirements of God. It is the same now and since New Testament times, that there are those who trust in the flesh, in the obedience to the written commands in order to stay right with God instead of through faith in Gods power to deliver them from all sin. Paul points this out to the Galatians.

So the two covenants have been in force since the begining, as depicted by the two trees in Eden. We can depend on the flesh, even sanctified flesh, or we can depend on the Spirit. The inauguration of the New Covenant happened in time but is eternally accessible to those who walk by the Spirit and do not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. It is a mistake to think that flesh only means sin.

The issue for the believer is not sin, that has been settled, or should have been. The issue next is whether we depend on our own understanding or we are led by the Spirit.

Thanks Ron I have not heard of Reader Harris.

Here is something I wrote previously

TWO LAWS

Paul speaks of two laws in Romans 8:2, the law of the Spirit of life and law of sin and death. The law of the Spirit of life is the path of light and the law of sin and death is the path of darkness. The two laws were typified in the Garden of Eden (and also through there being an Old Covenant and a New Covenant) through the two trees, the one of life and the other of knowledge. The tree of life is Christ and when we feed from or live in Christ, we have no sin, but if we do not, we are condemned by it, even though we make a confession that we know Christ, and because we are still in our sin, then we die spiritually and live in notions and according to our own knowledge and the life of Christ is not within us keeping us free from sin and preventing us from falling, as in Jude 24. Now unto Him that is able to keep you from falling and to present you faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy. According to George Fox we are “Out of the light, out of grace, out of truth Spirit and power of God such as resist the Holy Ghost, quench, vex and grieve the Holy Spirit of God and hate the light and turn the grace of God into wantonness and despise prophesying revelation and inspiration, they are dogs and unbelievers that are without the city. (The heavenly city of God, Journal 575) It is very interesting that the New Covenant existed before the Old Covenant law came in through Moses. It showed up first in the Garden typified in the tree, and then explained more fully with the appearance of Melchisedec King of Righteousness through whom Abraham also became perfect as others did too in the Old Testament and so were delivered from the law of sin and death.

The question remains, how are we to walk in the Spirit and mortify the deeds of the body? Paul deals with this question in Romans. In 8:13 he says For if ye live after the flesh ye shall die but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body ye shall live and have the creature itself delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God Romans 8:21 for He that spareth not His own Son but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also, freely give us all things. Romans 8:32. Therefore we are buried with Him by baptism into death that as like Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father; even so we also should walk in newness of life Romans 6:4. It was through His action alone that we are sanctified, through Christ coming into us in all the fullness of the possession of the Holy Spirit and the washing of the blood as an INNER cleansing.

The blood of Christ is not to wash us outwardly, but it is to enter into our very hearts, to sprinkle and make clean and pure so that our heart becomes new. Our polluted blood is now gone. It is this inward cleansing that Paul desired himself and had not yet attained when he saw in Romans 7:22 that although he desired to do the will of God, he was unable (23) to do so to the extent that God required of him and he cried out O wretched man that I am who will deliver me? The answer came in the next verse that the answer was through Jesus Christ and in 8:2 coming into the law of the Spirit and life through accepting that Christ did it on the cross and he had to likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord 6:11.

Yield yourselves unto God as those that are alive from the dead and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God 6:13 But now being made free from sin and become the servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness and the end everlasting life 6:22 I beseech you therefore brethren by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable unto God which is your REASONABLE service12:1 and be not conformed to this world but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind that ye may prove what is the good and acceptable and perfect will of God 12:2

Christ has done it all and has paid the price for us to live without sin. We were crucified with Him 2.000 years ago and it is not something that we must do for ourselves in the future by trying to tame the flesh. Our part is to co-operate with God in His mighty work in us by consenting to conform our will with His Thy will be done and He will be able to swiftly do the necessary work in the application of the blood of Christ into our heart and performing the circumcision which will release us from the law of sin and death so that we can emerge into His glorious kingdom.

Brenda

 2012/3/22 3:29
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

by krautfrau on 2012/3/22 5:29:49
"So the two covenants have been in force since the begining, as depicted by the two trees in Eden. We can depend on the flesh, even sanctified flesh, or we can depend on the Spirit. The inauguration of the New Covenant happened in time but is eternally accessible to those who walk by the Spirit and do not fulfill the lusts of the flesh."

I think if you think this one through you will see that it doesn't really stand up. The Old Covenant was not 'in force' from the beginning, but only from Sinai until Calvary. To use your analogy, the Old Covenant was NOT 'accessible' to anyone prior to Sinai or later than Calvary. It was a unique covenant designed for a unique people in a unique context and time frame. Similarly the New Covenant is only 'accessible' to those who enter it and, as I see it , entrance into the kingdom and into the New Covenant is effected by the reception of the indwelling Spirit which again, as I see it, was not available prior to Pentecost.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2012/3/22 6:18Profile









 Re:

Philologos

When I say it was in force, I mean that the law of sin and death was in force from the start and has always been, which is the basis of the necessity for the Old Covenant in order to provide the shadow of things to come. The Moses covenant was after all, not spiritually effective, this is to say, no-one could keep the law so they all perished who tried but those who walked by faith like Moses and Abraham, were saved. How do you account for them if there was no NC?

best wishes
Brenda

 2012/3/22 10:33





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