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"dear jim, the scripture you are using for carnal is about following a person or a peronnality. what we are talking about is two minsets of understanding the Word. "

brother jimp - if the calv & arm does not fall into 1 cor 3 then that verse is useless. Could you imagine the corinthians saying "but paul, we are just using your names to talk about doctrine"... no sir.

"i sincerly think , holding to slighty diferent donctrines ,as what is inderstood as the teaching of calvinism ,and the teaching of ariminaism ,,, is not the same in any way , to the situation in the corinthian church"

brother gary - go visit any message board where hard core cals and arms go at and then come say that again with a straight face. Total divisive carnality.

again, if cal and arm does not fall under 1 cor 3 then i might as well erase it from my bible because that part of scripture is meaningless... but then modern christendom makes almost the entire word of God seem meaningless too.

People say the same about religious titles "senior pastor", denominations and things too. Though scripture strictly forbids it they find away to justify it.


 2012/3/2 19:17

Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 1914


brother what goes on in those debates ,is no different to what you are doing to krissry and me ,,,,,you are pushing your doctrinal opinion , and assuming that we are wrong ,, it is no different ,and brother im saying that with a broken and contrite spirit ,,if that is a strait face

in this fourm we are bless by the blessed one to be able to love and felloship ,with out harsh division over these doctrinal matters ,with most of the active members ,,,,,,,
unity and diverity , in the comunity of christ

brother as i said ,in my last post ,,apolas and paul would have undoubtable taught the same doctrine , ,what we have is a compleatly different situation ,regarging interpratation ,of scripture

 2012/3/2 19:27Profile


"brother what goes on in those debates ,is no different to what you are doing to krissry and me "

brother gary - if i said i am a jimists and you guys are krispiests... then i would be doing the same thing, reasoning together is not spoken against by the apostles.

"apolas and paul would have undoubtable taught the same doctrine "

And the carnal mind in corinth would go so far as to pit their doctrine against each other - just as men today take half of the word of God and pit it against the other half.

 2012/3/2 19:37


btw brother gary I mean no disrespect to you, and I do believe the doctrines of Gods grace as taught in scripture. I can see we both have different understandings of the issue of using mens names. God bless you in Christ Jesus.


 2012/3/2 19:40

Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 1914


bless you to brother

 2012/3/2 21:22Profile

Joined: 2011/9/30
Posts: 1211


The superficiality of our culture has permeated into the mind-set of the Western church. The "cheap grace" that Bonhoeffer warned about has fostered an "easy-believism" that has allowed a superficial assent to Christianity that requires no real change or sacrifice. In a culture that advocates "safe sex," we have similarly developed a "safe" form of Christianized religion wherein no one is responsible for his actions. There is no doubt that God hates this farcical masquerade of role-playing, for it is totally alien to the dynamic reality of the living Lord Jesus manifesting His life in receptive Christian people.

Hundreds of thousands of people have responded to the evangelistic invitations of Billy Graham and other evangelists or preachers. They have joined various churches, attending catechism and new member classes where they learned the basic facts of Christian doctrine. Baptized and confirmed, they became "voting members" involved in their churches. They serve on committees, in leadership positions, and even behind the pulpit, but their faithful, loyal and dedicated "service" is often but a sterile form of "churchianity" that is devoid of the Christ-life that constitutes Christianity.

How can genuine Christians be content with going through the motions of ritualistic religion? How can they be content with cultural accommodation that adapts to the world's ways under the pretext of "relevance" and seeking to "be all things to all people" (I Cor. 9:22)? How can they be content with periodic "highs" of emotional experience that are inspiring, exciting, and "moving"? How can they be content to have their ears tickled with inspirational pabulum and the panacea of peace that proclaims, "All is well?"

Many who call themselves "Christians" seem to be oblivious to and unconcerned about the fact that the character of their behavior is selfishly misrepresentative of Jesus Christ, and fails to manifest the "fruit of the Spirit" (Gal. 5:22,23). Jesus clearly indicated that a person's spiritual condition would be evidenced by the "fruit" of his behavior (Matt. 7:16-23). Since a Christian is a "Christ-one" in whom the Spirit of Christ dwells (Rom. 8:9), if the character of Christ is not being evidenced in a person's life then it is legitimate to question whether that individual is a Christian despite his profession of such. It is not possible to be a nominal Christian "in name only," or a depository Christian who claims to have received Christ into his heart but has no evident desire for intimacy with the living Lord Jesus and no apparent growth in character expression. Those who seem to be content with a false hope that they have a ticket to heaven, or a pass to wave at St. Peter when they get to the pearly gates of Paradise must be confronted with the fact that it is possible to be a professor of Christ who is not a possessor of Christ. Christian salvation is not a static transaction whereupon one "got saved" at a particular point in time by engaging in prescribed activities. Salvation involves being "made safe" from the dysfunction of satanically abused humanity, in order to function as God intended as the expressive vessel of divine character. Genuine Christianity must not adapt itself to the games that the world plays with names, labels, and positions. Christianity is the dynamic reality of the living Christ within us functioning as Savior, continuing to save us from the dominations of sinful patterns in our lives as He overcomes such by His character.

Christian literature throughout the ages has consistently explained that the superficiality of easy-believism does not constitute genuine Christianity. A.W. Pink cautioned,

"Do not suppose that the Gospel is magnified or God glorified by going to the worldlings and telling them that they may be saved at this moment by simply 'accepting Christ' as their Savior, while they are wedded to their idols, and their hearts are still in love with sin. If I do so, I tell them a lie, pervert the gospel, insult Christ, and turn the grace of God into lasciviousness."

The missionary statesman, Norman P. Grubb, wrote,

"The only infallible, inexorable consequence of a sinner receiving salvation is not always made plain by Gospel preachers. It is often easy to get the impression that it is certainly necessary to have our sins forgiven, to be delivered from the wrath to come, to receive an assured entrance into heaven; but to submit to the total control of Christ is something which may and should follow, but does not necessarily do so; and even that it is possible to enjoy the former without the latter. Nothing could be more false or absurd. There is no salvation conceivable, possible or actual, other than God's way in infinite grace of destroying the false form of life in which man lives, and replacing it by the true. The false form of life is that which has "self" in the centre; the true form of life is that which has God at its centre - Christ living in me."

Though some who call themselves "Christians" seem to be oblivious to the misrepresentations of their lives, there are others who suspect there is "something more" to the Christian life than they have experienced. In the words of the song made popular by Peggy Lee, they are asking, "Is that all there is?" Sometimes they meet a Christian person who has a vital and vibrant personal relationship with the living Lord Jesus, and they make comments like: "Jesus seems so real to you. It's as if you believe that Jesus really talks to you, and walks with you, day by day." They ask questions like: "Do you really think that God is personally orchestrating your life? How can you be so sure that Jesus lives in you, and that God is working in your life?" The Spirit of Christ is often working in these individuals causing them to hunger and thirst for the fullness of what He wants to be and do in their lives.

James Fowler - Christ at Work in You
"The Continuiing Function of the Living Lord Jesus"

 2012/3/3 0:23Profile

Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 1914



 2012/3/3 1:31Profile

Joined: 2005/6/18
Posts: 1481


hi, so what you are saying is all these people with this easy believism aren't as great as i am who <like God, don't go for this. look at how i did itand how i had to do this or that to please the thrice holy God.boast

 2012/3/3 10:27Profile


"Are ye not carnal"

This word "Carnal" is used so many times in reference to other things that we have missed the real meaning to which Paul is referring to this word.

The Carnal Mind or the Natural Mind is a mind void of God's understanding.

"To be carnally minded is death".

That means to think and to act upon this lower mind leads to death. We must think from another mind, a mind that hasn't been 'totalled' like our mind has. Our mind is 'wrecked' it needs to be changed, it needs to be transformed. We need to think like Christ, we need His mind.

Anything and everything outside His mind is death, natural, carnal. For in that mind is the good, acceptable and perfect will of God.

How do we know if something is spoken is good acceptable and perfect? We will know because our spirit will bear witness with it.

A good way to know if there is something wrong with our thinking is how we respond to what is being spoken.

Remember the carnal mind is death, so death will speak when truth is spoken.

How does death speak? Paul tells us.

Hebrews 12:15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled; 16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.

Hebrews 12:17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

I digress, but I have to go forward with this because the other day the LORD showed me something about Esau and I forgot to write it down and just a half hour ago I said to the LORD, "why didn't I write that down, I have forgotten all about what You had said". And as I was looking into this scripture to post, the very verse becomes clear to me again like the other day. WOW

The thing about Esau was that HE KNEW HE WAS THE FIRST BORN. That is very clear. He would have inherited all things of his father Isaac, but despised it and cast it away TRAMPLING AS IF IT WAS NOTHING, so that he could satisfy his lust. He knew that he was the first born of his father.

Bringing it all up to date, WE KNOW THAT WE ARE BORN AGAIN OF OUR FATHER, just as Esau new his. Jesus was starving in the wilderness of Judea and Satan came tempting him to eat bread. "If thou be the Son of God turn these rocks into bread".

The LORD didn't have to prove His sonship, HE KNEW IT. That is why He never gave in to it. He never despised it. Satan's "if" has no meaning to the man that knows himself. Esau despised it. Conniving Jacob who lusted after the birthright spoke like the devil in his sneakiness. "I'll give you what you want "IF" you give me your birthright."

Isn't that what Satan said to Jesus? "I'll give you all the kingdoms of this world, if you fall down and worship me". Jesus knew that He would inherit all things, Satan's offer is like water in a bag with holes.

The linage of Jesus would have gone through Esau had he defended his title. But he never considered his salvation of any worth.

Such men today can take their BORN AGAIN experience and count it as nothing and turning away from Christ Himself and having nothing to do with him CANNOT obtain repentance again. Even in the face of WANTING to come back they can't. Not that God can't accept them back, I imagine He could because God is merciful, however, God is also bound by His word that Christ was slain ONCE before the foundation of the world and therefore fulfilled in His day died on the cross the once. He esteems His Word even above His own Name.

When Christ went into Hades to preach to the spirits in prison, I can see Esau being one of the ones running to Him. He couldn't get his birth right back in his day, but in Christ New Day, he was granted the privilege of being apart of Christ inheritance.

Millions believe that just because your born again by the Spirit of God it's impossible to lose your salvation. These people only read the sweet tasting promises of "I'll never leave you nor forsake you" verses, but they never read the dire warnings of those who forsake the LORD because of circumstances that are so desperate that bring themselves to a place of utter ruin. Some recover, others continue with a hard heart completely forsaking the LORD and publicly acknowledging they never knew Him.

The act of faith is still valid folks. We need to continually believe and trust in Him. The law and it's ordinances which were against us, He took upon His cross and took it out of the way. It had no faith in it. Since that has been taken away what is left is faith hope and charity. Even though the works are done, our work is to continually have faith. And if we have faith, the fruit, the gifts the charity all of these things will press out of us like oil running down the beard of Aaron.

Death speaks back to truth in contentions, arguments, strife, questions that won't bear fruit and other such evils. Paul admonishes us to let them die. If we don't a root of bitterness will spring up in us and therefore defile many. Jesus spoke truth, the Pharisees spoke back in anger.

Righteous anger always has one quality mixed in it. Mercy! If our anger has no intention of saving our brother then it's not righteous anger. Righteous anger is not trying to prove a point, righteous anger is to show us that we are wrong and we need help.

 2012/3/3 11:36


brother gary - if i said i am a jimists and you guys are krispiests... then i would be doing the same thing, reasoning together is not spoken against by the apostles.

And thats partially why I do not call myself a "Calvinist", because it implies that I follow John Calvin. I do not. I agree with most of his teachings, be sure about that. But that does not mean that I follow the man in any kind of carnal or idolatrous way. Who is anyone on this forum to judge anyone else's heart or motives?

And just so you know (because it sounds like you dont know), John Calvin did not write the "Five Points of Calvinism".

That actually came about some time after his death, and it was in response to a group of people who felt they had uncovered the errors of Martin Luther, Augustine, and John Calvin. Their five complaints (the Five Remonstrants) were presented for review... in many ways they were a restatement of Pelagianism with a more scholarly presentation than Pelagius had done years before. At that time, Pelagianism was found to be heresy and banned from the church, as opposed to today where any wind of doctrine is welcomed with open arms and hardly questioned.

The Remonstrants were presented to the Synod of Dordt for review and refutation of the Reformed Teaching that was growing by leaps and bounds in the Church of Europe. After careful reviewing the complaints with scholars from 8 countries, each Remonstrance was explored, examined, and finally refuted. All five were found to be in direct contradiction to Holy Scripture. The Scholars did not just dismiss the Five Remonstrants, but instead, they published the five errors along with the exposition of Scripture to explain what the true teaching of Scripture is. These five points developed into an acrostic known to us all as T.U.L.I.P., or the five points of Calvinism.

You must remember that John Calvin was long dead when the Synod of Dordt came to their conclusions and published the Canons of Dordt. Unfortunately, John Calvin has forever since been saddled with these five points as they are called the five points of Calvinism. Yet they do reflect the teachings of Calvin, but more importantly, the scholars felt that these five teachings now reflected the true presentation of man, sin, and salvation.

And of course today, in our post-modern churches, anyone like me who stands unshakenly upon doctrine and declares with boldness what they believe is considered to be cocky, arrogant and wrong. This is the result of churches not teaching the Bible today and families (particularly fathers) not teaching their children the truth of God's Word.

Having said that I also recognize that a man can read and study the Word and come to a different conclusion about the Doctrines of Grace. I do not know how that is possible, but it is. And I will still call that man "brother" even though we disagree on that. The fact is that if God reached down and saved him, then he is saved. We may not agree on how that happened, but I'm grateful it happened.


 2012/3/3 16:33

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