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As in my case of the once saved always saved doctrine, some of this may play into this subject yet, I do not think so.
I am sorry, sonship, that you did not see any connection between the issue of marginal conversions in Africa, and this very issue in America. I have come to believe that the osas debate will remain irresolvable (and is resurfaces repetitively here, and you just spin in the same circle) There is never a clear agreement of the meaning and implications of conversion. You are just talking about different phenomena.
If you really wish to come to terms with this, I strongly suggest that - before you toss out what is an important God-given promise in Christian assurance - you look into the issue of marginal conversions. Many are writing about it these days, and God can lead you to sources if you ask him to. I merely posted what was at my fingertips, what I am using it in another context in my own ministry involvements. But really, there is an absolutely direct link between the spiritism in Africa and the worldliness in America. It is an issue of deeply rooted worldviews never being recognized or dislodged wherever marginal conversions are characteristic of the Christian practice.
I was a Baptist for many years, so your concerns are very real to me too.
May God bless your search,
| 2012/2/26 15:01||Profile|
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hi, adam and eve were perfect and sinless and did not have any law to bother with except one small item.they had total freedom and dominion of the earth.they chose in perfect innocense to eat of that tree of the knowlege of good and evil and reject the tree of life.how are you, born with a sin nature in a wicked world filled with religeon and temptation everywhere you turn claim to live a life that is without sin so that you who began in grace are removed.Jesus is the last adam and He took the wrath of the Father on Himself at the cross for sin forever. if you will repent from control of your life and reckon yourself dead with Him and buried with Him so that Jesus is your life and your LOrd and Master you are eternally secure because it is not your life but His,and He is able.
| 2012/2/26 18:03||Profile|
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Diane, for my benefit, can you define "marginal conversions in relation to salvation." I think I understand what this term defines, I'd just like to make sure I'm following on the same page.
| 2012/2/26 18:57||Profile|
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define "marginal conversions in relation to salvation."
Actually I am borrowing this term from a missiologist who was referring to superficial conversions through missionary efforts. The people convert to Christianity; and there is evidence, but it is only superficial. The converts show change in their practices and behaviors, but deeper down, their values do not change, nor their basic presuppositions of life. You might find my link about that posted earlier quite informative.
Likewise, conversions in our churches may not touch on any of the core values assumed from our own culture. And lets admit, we are much more focused on behaviors than on the beliefs and values that drive behavior. And, let's admit, our evangelical salvation testimonies often leave a lot to be desired. They can be quite superficial.
I believe it can be hard to tell just how authentic a conversion is until ones faith is put to the test. Thats why I think discussions about the theoretical certainty or guarantee of theoretical people's salvation is rather fruitless.
Even for sonships brother: The story of his life is not finished yet. Its not time to make the final conclusion about his eternal destiny. Perhaps someday, his present life choices may be exactly what God uses to change his direction. Remember the Prodigal Son.
| 2012/2/26 19:34||Profile|
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I think that the OSAS teaching scares people. Especially those that push the holiness teachings. I am not against the latter only how it's defined.
But, I find that those who oppose the Eternal Security question is because they do not believe that God has secured them.
Jesus said, "come unto me you that labour and are heavy laden and I shall give rest unto your souls".
How can we rest if we are in doubt of our salvation?
Is Christ blood sufficient or isn't?
I had read an old newspaper clipping that was taken out of a paper back in the 1800's and it speaks of this very thing.
If a man is convinced that he is eternally secure in Christ, who are we to come along and trip him up with our doubts?
For example, My Mother believes that she is eternally secure in Christ, but at the same time she has a healthy fear of God. She doesn't take His grace for granted, nor does she do things that would be questionable. Her faith always shines out even in the most difficult of situations.
I envy her faith because I have trouble gripping the Eternal Security factor. I wish that I could have her faith. She never gives the appearance of doubt even when people are pushing it on her.
When she got saved some 55 years ago, she knew that she was saved. She knew it! The sin question was dealt with way back there. And John goes on to say, "IF" we sin, we have an advocate with the Father". Which tells me that sin is no longer a normal part of the Christian life. But "IF" we do sin, Christ has taken care of that.
If the brother in law believes that he is OSAS, then that is what he believes you can't convince him otherwise. The best thing to do is to leave him alone to his cave.
| 2012/2/26 19:42|
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"hi, there is no osas doctrine. this is what those who do not know what eternal security of the believer means. your security is in the hands of God and is very important. why do people argue that their God is not great enough to keep them . why do they argue that the covenant cutter, Jesus,is not enough as He forever makes intercession for us to His Father. what sin is greater then the shed blood of the Lamb?"
What would you say is the purpose of the warning passages in scripture?
| 2012/2/26 20:27||Profile|
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"what sin is greater then the shed blood of the Lamb?"
Continued, willful, unrepentant sin in the life of a professing believer is not forgiven by the blood of Jesus.
Hebrews 10:26 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has spurned the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace?
| 2012/2/26 20:34|
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hi jim, your scripture quote is my point. instead of arguing for the power of sin in a so called christian i choose to argue not to spurn the Son of Godand not to profane the blood of the covenant by which we are santified so that we do not outrage the Spirit of grace. this is a problem and was in galatia where paul pointed out that the law was and is the leaven that leavens the whole lump and leaves grace powerless through unbelief in the finished work of Jesus as the only means of salvation. not of anything you do or maintain lest you boast.i have been around for over 70 years and i have never seen the righteous forsaken. i have seen a few backslide and be severely dealt with (reaping what they sowed)by God and repent and come back to Christ. the only ones that have not are those who went into religeous activity that replaced grace.jimp
| 2012/2/26 21:26||Profile|
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Hebrews 10:26 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth,
Then no one can be saved. We have all deliberately and willfully sinned at some point AFTER being saved.
If anyone here says that they haven't your one of the special elite or your a good fibber.
Everyone here has had or currently is stubborn. And you knowing to do something and are aware of your actions and you deliberately do the opposite, everyone falls into this heap.
I do not believe for a moment that this is talking about willfully sinning some secret sin or some other known sin.
This sin is talking about deliberate and willfull apostasy, turning away from Jesus Christ and making a public confession that Jesus Christ is not the Lord. These person cannot come back in the way the came seeing they crucify the Lord afresh, and Christ was only crucified the once.
Let me encourage everyone who might be weak in your mind and your filled with condemnation because of this verse of scripture because you willfully sinned a sin because you had to or whatever it might be, and you know within yourself that it's not right just the same, however, your not damned because of this verse. Call upon the Lord and be cleansed from all unrighteousness because He is faithful. This verse doesn't not apply to believers who fall into some sin or willfully fall into it. You know you love the Lord in the capacity that you love Him and there will be times that you may by your stubborn will sin against your wife, or your neighbour.
"How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has spurned the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace?"
When you continue reading this verse, you can see that this is talking about Apostasy. "spurned" the Son of God.
The word "spurn" means, 'to reject with disdain or contempt'
Is that you or I?
I certainly do not want to reject my Lord who saved me. And I am sure you do not as well.
We are encouraged not to sin against our body, brother, wife, neighbour or whoever or whatever it might be, we are encouraged not to sin at all. But if we do sin, whether it is a sin that we fall into or we willfully wanted to do it just to be obstinate against whomever, even God Himself, we can receive forgiveness because this sin is not about rejecting or flinging the Son of God out of our lives as if He was nothing. Such acts were being committed in the first century by Jewish men who had received Christ but turned away from Him and cast Him out of their lives.
That is the unpardonable sin.
| 2012/2/26 21:59|
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it think you are right that is the direct contex of the verse
but it can probable be widend to include those who trampled the blood of the covernent ,by not doing the will of the father whom is in heaven even tho in the last day they will say lord lord ,did we not perform wonders in your name
those whom jesus mentioned ,, denined christ as apostates ,by professing him ,but having no repentence ,hence they neverr did the will of the father
being hipocreates ,
i dare say that those who jesus talked about when he said not everyone who calls me lord will enter into the kingdom of heaven but he who does the will of my father who is in heaven
many will say to me in the day did we not perfom wonders and your name and cast out demons in your name
i will say to them ,i never new you
you workers of iniquity
deprt from me into evalsting fire prepared for the devil and his angles
these sinned willfull after recing the knowlage of the truth
and wile they lived in repobation ,there no longer remained a scacrafice for sin ,,but and expectation ,of judgment ,that will devour the adversers
now im not saying i can tell who these people are in my generation ,,,but these are living with us today no doubt ,perforing signs ,and casting out demons
tho by their fruits you will no them ,if you get to no them well enough
| 2012/2/26 23:37||Profile|