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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : HISTORIC PREMILLENNIALISM WITH A VICTORIOUS CHURCH

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Sidewalk
Member



Joined: 2011/11/11
Posts: 710
San Diego

 Re: Rapture thoughts

I have a list of concerns over the doctrine of the rapture. All of the common versions of it involve that flight into the sky- just when it will happen seems to be the traditional starting point of conversations that generate way more heat than light.

My grandfather was a pre-trib fan, and was convinced that he was going to be raptured in his lifetime. He held on into the mid 70's and finally succumbed to natural futility at age 102.

If I may, let me take you outside the box for just a moment. I am sometimes intrigued by what Jesus didn't say when he could have. His disciples, both then and now, are anxious for knowledge of what is to come and they asked Him very directly about the end of the age. For some strange reason- He did not explain the rapture flight.

Just as today, men desire knowledge over relationship. We want to know what's coming so we can prepare. We don't like when He tells us we will be brought before human authorities to give an account for our faith- and have Jesus say "Give no thought beforehand what you will say, for it will be given to you by the Holy Spirit."

As I read through Jesus' words on all this, I am struck by how all His emphasis is on the relationship, not the events. As a result, I tend to craft my views on eschatology on my relationship with Him rather than trying to figure out the order of events that will force God's hand and trigger the rapture. When, for example, Jesus says "I go to prepare a place for you, that where I am ye may be also," most people think real estate. Mansions, golden streets, probably restaurants with free food- hopefully that elusive flying car they have dreamed about.

I don't think so. The "place" of which Jesus speaks is not geographical but relational. He is at one with the Father, and wants us to be one with Him. When that happens- voila, Rapture. But we don't need to go anywhere, we are already in our destination. In Christ, filling Him who fills all in all. In my opinion Jesus did give us a glimpse of that rapture glory on the mount of transfiguration. For a very brief time He was clothed with rapture, only to take it off so He could purchase the same for us.



As for this separation of the Jews and the church? Jesus did not separate the great commission into two streams, one for the Jews, one for everyone else. As Paul asserts, and he had to have revelation to say this, there is no longer Jew or Greek. There is a world of sinners and Christ followers, and for theologians to reconstitute people groups by artificial qualifications is to insult the gospel by which all men must be saved.

Moreover, there is no prophetic stream that illustrates the flyaway rapture. God puts His revelations to us into these multigenerational prophetic streams so that we are protected from the Johnny-come-Lightbulbs who have the big secret from God to lead us to wherever they think we should go. People like Mohammed, Charles T. Russell, Joseph Smith- all selling their soap without the confirmation of prophetic roots. The Pre-trib rapture doctrine, originating around the time of Margaret McDonald in 1837, is very suspect for this same reason.

I am also very suspect of doctrines with strong appeal to the desires of my flesh. Leave the world of crime, rot, and corruption to go to a nice dinner somewhere up in the sky?? Hey- sign me up for that! But it is a far cry from Paul's words where he says he would be willing to give up his salvation if it could mean the salvation of his Pharisee brethren. A long ways from Charles Finney's cry- "God if I can serve you best in Hell, send me there!"

Or Jesus as He faced the cross. "Not My will but Thine be done."

In the past century literally millions of Christians have been murdered by the atheist regimes of the Communists and other anti-God governmental systems. They were not plucked away to safety, even as the words of Jesus warn in Matthew 24.

My flesh has no interest in going through pain and suffering. But the Spirit of Christ within me says, "Bring it on, that great battle that will usher in the reign of Christ and destroy all of Satan's strongholds!"

Jesus gave a special command to the disciples when they asked Him how to pray. He said, "Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven."

We should still be praying for that, because it is obviously in His heart to be accomplished. That's the Rapture I'm looking for.


_________________
Tom Cameron

 2012/2/1 23:56Profile









 Re:

Good post Sidewalk. Dispensationalism is a murky affair, embraced by some of our most conservative seminary's, not the least of which is Dallas Theological.

For a few semesters I attended a smallish Bible school, four point Calvinists and dispensationalists. Most of the profs were allumni of Dallas. Interesting time for this Pentecostal non Calvinist, non pre-trib believer (excuse the theological terms:) I even managed to get an A in my Premillennial Dispensationalism class ( one should get an A just for being able to spell it)

The system is actually very complex, because, I believe, that error begets error and if you continue down the path of error you end up with something monsterous. Anyway, if you want to find out the source of the modern pre-trib teaching, start with John Nelson Darby and the prophecy conferences with the Irvingites(Scottish group) at Lady Powerscourt's mansion. This is where it all begins. Proponents will try and tell you that their is historical refererences to this belief and teaching down through the centuries, its simply not true. There is a smatering of this and that of course, which you would expect to find in almost 2000 years of doctrine and theology, but there was never any group who believed in a pre-trib rapture. If you have the time, you will find it to be a facinating study and it will only confirm what you already believe...... bro Frank

 2012/2/2 0:19
jimp
Member



Joined: 2005/6/18
Posts: 1481


 Re:

hi, the Lord told me to take no thought of tomorrow and live ready day by day.i can't do anything about what happens for i am not in control of anything about it... it also could be that i developed the most heretical and unusual escatology and would be kicked off the internet if i went into it.a sample ... i was on my way to leon (mexico) from saltillo and was looking down at the clouds.i believe that dan.3 is very much end timeprophesy. enough.jimp

 2012/2/2 0:38Profile
pilgrim777
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Joined: 2011/9/30
Posts: 1211


 Re:

Absolutely agree with you, Frank.

Quote:
The system is actually very complex, because, I believe, that error begets error and if you continue down the path of error you end up with something monsterous.



I have been pleasantly refreshed and edified by this view.

http://www.christinyou.net/pages/revel.html

Pilgrim

 2012/2/2 1:19Profile
davidc
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Joined: 2010/8/15
Posts: 272
France

 Re:

Quote

I believe, that error begets error and if you continue down the path of error you end up with something monsterous.

And the first "error" which leads to all the others is believing that the bible is the Word of God, and is to be understood in the way God intended. If a parable or metaphor is used, it is to be understood as such. Otherwise, it is to be understood literally. There is no room for man's spiritualising and alegorising of the old testament, the common practice today.
All the other "errors" spring from this and produce, not something monstrous, but a full understanding of God's purposes and will.



But we have been diverted from EvangelTam's posting.

Although I did contend that there are no events prophesied to be fulfilled in this present church age, there is an important section of scripture which, as well as Paul's, Jude's and John's letters, I believe, fortells the state of the church, or rather churches, of Christ during this age. You guessed it: Revelation chapters 2 and 3.

You will have read these letters to the churches and seen their fallen state in the eyes of Jesus Christ walking in the midst of the 7 golden candlesticks. I would ask " is our church today better than theirs? After all the revivals of His Holy Spirit shed on us, are not the churches still the same?"

But there is one church - Philadelphia - where Jesus, the Holy and True, commends them with no rebuke. Why?

"for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name. " Rev 3 v 8.

And His promise to them is:

Rev 3:10 " Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from (lit. out of) the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. "

This is not seen as a great church in the midst of revival, changing society and goverments, but "of little strength", His "little flock", His "little children", His lovers of the brethren (lit philadelphia).


David


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david

 2012/2/2 6:47Profile
EvangelTam
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Joined: 2011/1/29
Posts: 149


 Re:

"This is not seen as a great church in the midst of revival, changing society and goverments, but "of little strength", His "little flock", His "little children", His lovers of the brethren (lit philadelphia)."

I believe this is the victorious church of the last days. A church of "little strength" but with a mighty God who will perform wonders in their midst for His glory on the earth.

I would also argue that Joel 2 points to some sort of Holy Spirit outpouring/revival in the last days....

And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh; your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, and your young men shall see visions. Joel 2:28

This is of course quoted by Peter at Pentecost however I believe it was only a partial fullfillment since the Spirit at that time was poured out on Jews only.

"As for a last days world wide revival hmm yes I guess that can be arguable depending on the definition of revival I would say that in order for a victorious to rise up there needs to be a revival for it to be awakened. I would say that will be a last days harvest of souls.

But our faith can not be built on "It makes sense that"; and "I would say that", but rather "thus saith the Lord."

Sorry to support the point that a church will arise over the forces of darkness in the last days I would quite Matthew 16:18

"I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.

 2012/2/3 15:11Profile
pilgrim777
Member



Joined: 2011/9/30
Posts: 1211


 Re:

Ever since the Resurrection it has been the "last days".

"In the first proclamation of the early church, Peter quoted Joel’s prophecy of the “last days” (Joel 2:28) saying it was fulfilled by the Pentecostal manifestation
of the Spirit of Christ (Acts 2:17). Now Paul commences
with the same theme that “in these last days God has spoken
to us in His Son.” The “last days” are not future. Rather, they began in the past when God historically revealed Himself incarnationally in the Son, and they continue throughout the new covenant “day of salvation” (II Cor. 6:2) unto the “last time” (cf. I Peter 1:5) of the future.

Although Jewish eschatology was always future-focused, Christian eschatology is focused on Christ, the fulfillment of God’s “last things”, and must necessarily be based on what Christ has already accomplished on our behalf in His “finished work” (John 19:30), all the while recognizing the perpetuity and continuum of His eternal work into the future. Christian eschatology will always
recognize the “already” and the “not yet” of God’s “last
things” in Jesus Christ. (James Fowler)"

Pilgrim

 2012/2/3 15:43Profile
davidc
Member



Joined: 2010/8/15
Posts: 272
France

 Re:

EvangelTam you write re Philadelphia

Quote
"I believe this is the victorious church of the last days. A church of "little strength" but with a mighty God"

Amen to this. This is true faith. Faith in our Lord Jesus Christ, as our Head and our Glorious Bridegroom. Amen and Amen.

Quote
"I would also argue that Joel 2 points to some sort of Holy Spirit outpouring/revival in the last days...."

This does not spring from faith. Faith speaks of what is true and experienced. You would benefit from reading all three chapters of Joel to see the context in which the Lord is saying these things. See the order of events in the prophesy, and to whom Jehovah is speaking. There is no "some sort of outpouring/ revival" spoken of here, but:

"He will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month." and:

"And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed. "

It is clearly speaking of Israel during the millenium, a prophesy partly fulfilled in Act 2 for the church.


I agree with you about Matthew 16 v18: "I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.". It is wonderful to know, that He, acknowleged as the Son of God, will always be Head of the Body, and will keep it for Himself in the heavenlies.

David


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david

 2012/2/4 9:08Profile
EvangelTam
Member



Joined: 2011/1/29
Posts: 149


 Re:

Quote:
"This does not spring from faith. Faith speaks of what is true and experienced. You would benefit from reading all three chapters of Joel to see the context in which the Lord is saying these things. See the order of events in the prophesy, and to whom Jehovah is speaking. There is no "some sort of outpouring/ revival" spoken of here, but:

"He will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month." and:

"And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed. "

It is clearly speaking of Israel during the millenium, a prophesy partly fulfilled in Act 2 for the church."
______________________________________________________
I have read the all three chapters of Joel but even in context this part of Joel 2 is a prophecy of the last days and not of Israel's immediate future.

I would also like to point out that we are still in the last days how much more so now then 2000 years ago? and like you said the prophecy was partly fulfilled in Acts 2.
To me this indicates that the Spirit is still to be poured out in a greater measure on ALL FLESH not just Jews in these last days. I guess this is what I am referring too when I say outpouring or revival. I mean that God is going to pour out His Spirit on many people from all tribes, tongues and nations.





 2012/2/5 17:33Profile
Lysa
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3433
This world is not my home anymore.

 Re: HISTORIC PREMILLENNIALISM WITH A VICTORIOUS CHURCH

Quote:
sidewalk wrote:
I am sometimes intrigued by what Jesus didn't say when he could have. His disciples, both then and now, are anxious for knowledge of what is to come and they asked Him very directly about the end of the age. For some strange reason- He did not explain the rapture flight.


For some strange reason He didn't! From Matthew 24 we can read...
7 but the end is not yet.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 and then shall the end come. (And here Jesus begins to describe the end and it isn’t a rapture)

Quote:
sidewalk wrote:
...most people think real estate. Mansions, golden streets, probably restaurants with free food- hopefully that elusive flying car they have dreamed about.

I don't think so. The "place" of which Jesus speaks is not geographical but relational. He is at one with the Father, and wants us to be one with Him.


I like your out-of-the-box thinking!

Quote:
sidewalk wrote:
As for this separation of the Jews and the church? Jesus did not separate the great commission into two streams, one for the Jews, one for everyone else.


I have never believed it to be logical according to the Bible and therefore, I concluded that the pre-trib doctrine was anti-Semitic at its roots.

Quote:
sidewalk wrote:
I am also very suspect of doctrines with strong appeal to the desires of my flesh. Leave the world of crime, rot, and corruption to go to a nice dinner somewhere up in the sky??


And I always thought that if the pre-trib doctrine is true that the Church would be whisked away before the ‘big trouble’ started that God would have to apologize to every martyr.


Quote:
appolus wrote:
The system is actually very complex, because, I believe, that error begets error and if you continue down the path of error you end up with something monsterous.


I thought so too but I didn’t know how to put it... but around the corner in a discussion it’s always something different that can be explained away. Complex because error begets error... very logical.

Thank you both (and others) for more to think about!!
God bless,
Lisa


_________________
Lisa

 2012/2/6 7:14Profile





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