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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : King Saul

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 Re: False beliefs about Pelagius

Pelagius taught that man is born innocent and can do right if he choses whereas Augustine the true heretic said man cannot chose not to sin, obviously a reflection of his own excuses. Pelagius further, did not teach that man can be saved without Christ, he was a holy man and a theologian who could actually read the scriptures in their original languages which is more than Augustine could do. The majority of the Christian world has been built upon the errors of Augustine and this is why it has such a bad name of hypocricy.

 2012/1/28 16:47

Joined: 2011/11/11
Posts: 710
San Diego

 Re: Amen, Krautfrau!

Sorry, King Saul- we have drifted into other water...

Pelagius and Augustine were contemporaries, born the same year 354. Not surprisingly, theological disputes from then until fairly recently were resolved by those of one thought killing off those of another. To be labeled a heretic was a very big deal, and unfortunately for Pelagius, that is his most prominent legacy. Augustine won the argument of the day one might surmise, and his view that sin is a physical component of human nature is still the dominant theology of most church denominations, both Roman Catholic and Protestant.

Charles Finney took all that to task, and is also despised as a heretic in many circles, to include the ministerial staff of the church where I go. Charles was taught the traditional Calvinist view early on, and concluded that if God was so unjust and unreasonable that he could be found guilty of someone else's sin, he wanted no part of it. He was converted when he found that the bible actually did not teach the inborn sinful nature doctrine, and when he preached full responsibility for sin thousands came forward confessing and repenting. In 50 years of ministry, few have been so effective in bringing people to genuine conversion. If you have not read his autobiography, I highly recommend it. Helen Wessel's edited version can be found on line, paperback and cheap. (I knew Helen, and....she knows God!)

Think about it, if sin is natural and unavoidable you will not see it as something destructive in your life that must be dealt with and conquered. It is no big thing, "It's just the way I am."

But if you can see sin as an evil choice against God and take full responsibility for it, you have a path through forgiveness to righteousness, and I must say when you are filled with righteousness you will be filled with happiness!

My personal theology begins in James,3:17. "The wisdom which is from above is pure, peaceable, gentle, open to reason..."

Salvation for me is all those things, demonstrated in the phenomenal words of Jesus, and the sacrificing of Himself so that I might have eternal life. He only expects from me that which is reasonable and doable by me.

What does the Lord require of me? "To do justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with Him."

I can do that. And if I fall, He is there to pick me up.

I am in love with Jesus my Lord and Savior!

Tom Cameron

 2012/1/28 19:04Profile

Joined: 2011/11/11
Posts: 710
San Diego

 Re: reply to EverestoSama

First off, thank you for this conversation. In the end we probably won’t agree on all points, but that’s not the most important thing. I do know that my truth is only partial, and that to get to better truth I need to learn from others who have heard from God. In the meantime, I believe I too have heard from God and the things I present here are open to scrutiny. May the things I write and say be edifying to His children and I welcome correction if my thoughts are amiss. I trust the integrity of the Bible.

In the matter of the conception of Jesus Christ, I believe He was conceived by the Holy Spirit in Mary that He might be fully God and fully man. If bypassing Joseph was to prevent the sin substance from being born in Jesus, then He is not fully man, and does not qualify to be the savior.

Isaiah prophesied thus “Unto us a child is born, unto us a Son is given.” Jesus the child was born in Bethlehem a natural human birth. Jesus the man begins here. But the Son of God is eternal, cannot start at a birth, so He is given. And so, just as prophesied, He is fully God and fully man.

Here is what I believe happened in regard to Jesus walking as a sinless man. At the baptism by John in the Jordan, Jesus removed the “Son of God” mantle, as Paul says in Phillipians 2 He emptied Himself and took the form of a bond-servant man. From there He went into the presence of Satan and was tempted thusly- “If you are the Son of God turn these stones into bread.” But His response gave the devil shivers. “Man shall not live by bread alone…” or to paraphrase, “I’m not coming to defeat you as the Son of God, Satan. I have come to defeat you as a man.”

Just as the riches of man’s first estate were surrendered to Satan by Adam, the redeeming of all things will be through this man, Jesus. To do it, He must be fully man.

So Jesus walked that sinless road, His equality with God set aside. And one day on the mountain with only the three disciples, He received the rapture reward that God has prepared for man. Owing no death for sin, He could have gone into eternal heaven right then- but he chose to take it off. He knew that without the sacrifice we would be lost. He went down the mountain to pay the price we owed for sin. He was doing all of this as a man.

I would pause to say that yes it is theoretically possible for a man to walk a sinless life and be received into the presence of God, just as Jesus demonstrated. The fact that we don’t do it doesn’t logically mean that we cannot do it, especially since the scripture clearly teaches that “This law is not too hard for you…” Deut 30:11 and John’s epistle “His commandments are not burdensome.” I Jn. 5:3b

We don’t obey the law because we want to do things and have things in spite of, and in defiance of God. In this incredible simplicity we see why we are so guilty, so in need of repentance, so in need of this Savior.

I don’t see Satan’s presence in the Garden of Eden as sin entering the world. I see the world (the physical globe) as being created as a habitation for man, God’s beloved crown of creation. I see all of it under Adam’s authority and control (whatever that was like?) and Satan coming in to challenge the man for control of it. I don’t think that Satan, whether in spirit or serpent form could wield any influence until he had seduced Adam into sin.

In Romans 8 when Paul speaks of the total redemption of the physical world into the glorious liberty of the children of God, I perk up! It seems to me that when Christ Jesus’ work in us is finished, and He rules the earth, that everything will be freed from the curse of death. Oh how I want to see that!

Many in traditional doctrine have their hopes in a physical flight to the sky when the earth is redeemed, but I don’t see that as a bible doctrine. My vision is captured in Psalm 149 “6 Let the high praises of God be in their mouth, and a two edged sword in their hand, 7 To execute vengeance on the nations and punishment on the peoples, 8 To bind their kings with chains and their nobles with fetters of iron, 9 To execute on them the judgement written; this is an honor for all His faithful ones.”

This is where the action is. I probably talk way too bold now, but when this war breaks out I want to be fighting it here, filled with the Spirit of Christ. When the time came for the real battle, Jesus did not run away. I only want to be with Him.

Tom Cameron

 2012/1/28 21:57Profile


I would pause to say that yes it is theoretically possible for a man to walk a sinless life and be received into the presence of God, just as Jesus demonstrated.

Thanks for answering. That's what I was curious about.

So then the possibility exists (though improbable as it may be), that a person on judgement day COULD present their righteous life to God apart from Christ, and be accepted into the presence of the Father based solely on the fact that had not sinned in their own strength, correct?

 2012/1/28 22:06

 Re: King Saul

What we learn from the following two verses and context of the lives of the two men is that King Saul was extended a temporal revocable mercy, and Solomon was extended an eternal irrevocable mercy from God.

  2 Samuel 7:15   But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee.

  1 Chronicles 17:13   I will be his father, and he shall be my son: and I will not take my mercy away from him, as I took it from him that was before thee:

King Saul was damned, whereas Solomon was saved.


 2012/1/29 4:04

Joined: 2011/11/11
Posts: 710
San Diego

 Re: At the Judgement

Could you imagine someone coming to the judgement and saying to the Father,

"I really wanted to obey You perfectly, but You made it too hard."

I don't think that would fly.

Yet in reality, people blame God all the time.
"Search me and know me, O God- and see if there be any wicked way in me."

Now that is one of the best prayers ever.

Tom Cameron

 2012/1/29 15:49Profile

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