| Poster | Thread | Oracio
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Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA
| | Re: | | J-I-G, that is the key, the whole counsel of God. When we alienate certain parts or truths and overlook or dismiss others we will always get in deep trouble. God's Word is crystal clear we cannot be saved from God's wrath by keeping the Law, only by God's free grace through the atonement of Christ. But it is also clear that once we are saved we are to delight in God's Law and Word and follow it as our moral compass, by the power of God's Spirit at work in us. Psalm 119 is indeed a good example of how we are to esteem and view God's Word and Law as blood-bought children of God.
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Oracio
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|  2012/1/16 22:19 | Profile | Oracio
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Joined: 2007/6/26
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Whittier CA USA
| | Re: | | The begining of the OP seems to be implying that, for the Christian, there is nothing good to be found in God's Law or the preaching of it. But notice what the New Testament writers say to Christians about it:
"9For the commandments, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness,You shall not covet,and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. And do this, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep; for now our salvation is nearer than when we first believed.(Rom.13:9-11)
"9Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God."(1Cor.6:9-11)
"25Therefore, putting away lying, Let each one of you speak truth with his neighbor,for we are members of one another. 26 Be angry, and do not sin: do not let the sun go down on your wrath, 27 nor give place to the devil. 28 Let him who stole steal no longer, but rather let him labor, working with his hands what is good, that he may have something to give him who has need. 29 Let no corrupt word proceed out of your mouth, but what is good for necessary edification, that it may impart grace to the hearers. 30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31 Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice. 32 And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you."(Eph.4:25-32)
"3But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; 4 neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience."(Eph.5:3-6)
"8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, You shall love your neighbor as yourself, you do well; 9 but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For He who said, Do not commit adultery,also said, Do not murder.Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty."(James 2:8-12)
Those are just some examples. The NT is filled with such exhortations to turn from all wickedness and put on the Lord Jesus Christ making no provision for the flesh.
The devil on the other hand will tell you, "Hey what's the big deal, you don't have to worry about obeying God's Law or commandments. All that was taken care of on the cross. All you have to do now is believe in Jesus atonement for your sins and it does not matter how you live."
Don't let the devil fool you. He is a liar and the father of all lies. Stick to God's Word and you will not go wrong. He will guide your steps through His Word by His Spirit.
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Oracio
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| | 2012/1/16 22:47 | Profile |
| | Re: The law - The Gospel | | - The law has no good news for mankind. (False)
Deuteronomy 29:9 Keep therefore the words of this covenant, and do them, that ye may prosper in all that ye do.
Psalm 119:97, 172 "O how love I thy law! it is my meditation all the day . . . . for all thy commandments are righteousness."
- The law can not give anyone Life. (False)
Revelation 22:14 "BLESSED ARE THEY THAT DO HIS COMMANDMENTS, that they may have right to the TREE OF LIFE, and may enter in through the gates into the city."
- The law can not cleanse the heart.(False)
Psalm 19:7-8, 10-11 "The law of the LORD is perfect, CONVERTING THE SOUL: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
- The law can not make anyone holy (False)
But still, THE LAW ITSELF IS HOLY, and its commands are holy and right and good. Romans 7:12
- The law can not produce Love. (False)
I John 5:3, "For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments: and His commandments are not grievous."
- The law can not sanctify anyone. (False)
Leviticus 20:7 Sanctify yourselves therefore, and be ye holy: for I am the Lord your God. 8 And ye shall keep my statutes, and do them: I am the Lord which SANCTIFY YOU.
Trying to make a point is one thing, blasphemy is another.
It's not too late to repent. You won't have forever though.
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| | 2012/1/16 23:42 | | Oracio
Member
Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA
| | Re: | | theEphah wrote "Trying to make a point is one thing, blasphemy is another. It's not too late to repent. You won't have forever though"
Amen. I saw the same kind of thing in the thread about God's Word. Disheartening.
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Oracio
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| | 2012/1/17 0:00 | Profile | roadsign
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Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777
| | Re: | | Quote:
The law has no good news for mankind. (False)
Why is there a tendency to pit divine Law against divine Spirit as if the two are mutually incompatible? Gods Spirit presumably replaces our need for law (among any number of other faculties and disciplines). Is it that humans have a tendency to see only in black and white, either/or; if one way is right, the other must necessarily be wrong. Dont you and I see that habit of thinking a lot, even in our discussions here? (Well
lets admit, it does keep discussion going.)
Gal. 3:10 says: All who RELY on observing the law are under a curse. This is truth, not because the law is bad or redundant, but because every person relying on it is hell-bound - condemned for legal violation!
In the parable of the Good Samaritan account, Jesus does not tell the legal expert to banish the law, but to live it. In this account we see that observance of law is synonymous with receiving eternal life. The priest and Levite failed to observe the Great Commandment because for them the letter of the law took precedence over the spirit of the law: The two travelers were incapable of fulfilling the law because they were incapable of living by the spirit of the law. They were restricting OT purity laws to religious ritual (don't get defiled by touching dead bodies), and failed to understand the spirit of those very laws: purity of heart enacted though perfect love. Be Perfect therefore as your heavenly Father is perfect Matt. 5:47 Therefore, they passed by the wounded man - in case he was dead!
A thought: Trying to extract law is like trying to extract the backbone: Living effectively becomes impossible. (And you just end up making substitute laws.)
Another thought: The person who sees only the letter of the law also holds to a definition of the word law which restricts this word from crossing over into the fuller essence of law. There is then a problem in the very definition of the word law: Its too narrow! And based on THAT narrow definition - yes - law itself is problematic.
Does that make any sense?
Diane
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Diane
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| | 2012/1/17 7:35 | Profile | Oracio
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Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA
| | Re: | | Amen Diane I understand what you are saying. Great post.
Another thought came to mind. God's moral Law reveals the very character of God. He is holy, and He commands us to be holy as He is. But through the fall man is depraved and does not really delight in holiness and righteousness, but rather in sin.
Therefore it is natural for man to dumb down and despise the holy character of God and to try to picture Him as someone like himself, having a low standard of righteousness. We despise the idea of God requiring us to live holy lives. And we try to do away with His commands and say He is not interested in us keeping them. So we end up creating an idol in our minds, a false god that we are more comfortable with.
Every Christian will admit that the great sin of the world is that they have exchanged the true God for an idol that they are comfortable with in their sins. But could it be that that type of idolatry has also affected many in the Church? To to point that, even though we may have way more truth than the world, much of their philosophy regarding God has stuck with us?
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Oracio
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| | 2012/1/17 9:38 | Profile | pilgrim777
Member
Joined: 2011/9/30
Posts: 1211
| | Re: | | Quote:
Why is there a tendency to pit divine Law against divine Spirit as if the two are mutually incompatible? Gods Spirit presumably replaces our need for law (among any number of other faculties and disciplines). Is it that humans have a tendency to see only in black and white, either/or; if one way is right, the other must necessarily be wrong. Dont you and I see that habit of thinking a lot, even in our discussions here? (Well
lets admit, it does keep discussion going.)
Gal. 3:10 says: All who RELY on observing the law are under a curse. This is truth, not because the law is bad or redundant, but because every person relying on it is hell-bound - condemned for legal violation!
In the parable of the Good Samaritan account, Jesus does not tell the legal expert to banish the law, but to live it. In this account we see that observance of law is synonymous with receiving eternal life. The priest and Levite failed to observe the Great Commandment because for them the letter of the law took precedence over the spirit of the law: The two travelers were incapable of fulfilling the law because they were incapable of living by the spirit of the law. They were restricting OT purity laws to religious ritual (don't get defiled by touching dead bodies), and failed to understand the spirit of those very laws: purity of heart enacted though perfect love. Be Perfect therefore as your heavenly Father is perfect Matt. 5:47 Therefore, they passed by the wounded man - in case he was dead!
A thought: Trying to extract law is like trying to extract the backbone: Living effectively becomes impossible. (And you just end up making substitute laws.)
Another thought: The person who sees only the letter of the law also holds to a definition of the word law which restricts this word from crossing over into the fuller essence of law. There is then a problem in the very definition of the word law: Its too narrow! And based on THAT narrow definition - yes - law itself is problematic.
Does that make any sense?
That is the problem in a nutshell, Diane.
People are pitting the law against the Spirit and the Spirit against the law showing that they understand neither one and the role that they play.
Jesus said it much more simpler. "The letter kills but the Spirit gives life".
Pilgrim |
| | 2012/1/17 10:34 | Profile | Lysa
Member
Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3699
East TN for now!
| | Re: The law - The Gospel | | Quote:
what is the law that brings freedom?
Owe no man anything, but to love one another: FOR HE THAT LOVETH ANOTHER HATH FULFILLED THE LAW. ~ Romans 13:8
Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: THEREFORE LOVE IS THE FULFILLING OF THE LAW. ~ Romans 13:10
For ALL THE LAW IS FULFILLED IN ONE WORD, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. ~ Galatians 5:14
If ye FULFIL THE ROYAL LAW ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURE, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: ~ James 2:8
God bless,
Lisa
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Lisa
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| | 2012/1/17 10:35 | Profile | Sree
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Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1953
| | Re: ArtB | | Quote:
Jesus was born a Jew, and all Jews were under the Mosaic Covenant with 613 Laws, and all laws have judgement and penalties to suffer for each Law that one failed to keep.
I never said Jesus did not live under law. Please read my post clearly before posting. I said what Jesus preached is not Old Covenant. He preached the spirit of law not the exact law. He did not sin by not preaching the law, as he defends himself by saying on sermon on the mount that what he preaches will strengthen the law and not weaken it. If you have ever understood any of his teachings, you will clearly see it is all the spirit behind the word, Jesus wants us to keep the spirit. The Pharasees missed the spirit and kept only the external word and that is why Jesus said their internal cup is unclean.
It is true that we are no longer under the Mosaic law and we are under grace. But that does not mean we can live as lawless creations. One should not go to the extreme and reject law totally. If we become lawless creation then call that living by Faith then how can we be Holy like our Father in Heaven?
Even in Romans Paul says, Romans 2-14:-
For when Gentiles who do not have [m]the Law do [n]
instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.
This is the law of New Covenant, Law of Spirit where we keep the requirements of Law. The SPirit will guide us to maintain the requirements of Law. Do you have a clear conscience before God all the time? If not then you will be Judged according to the true Gospel, irrespective of what Jesus has accomplished. But there is Hope Repent. Where then is your so called SAVED theology? Salvation is a daily process, every day we need fellowship with God and have a clear conscience with him.
You who say the teachings of Jesus is Law and we do not need to follow it, in Matthew 11:26 which I have quoted before, Jesus talks about putting a different burden from what Moses put on them, what is this?
In John 6-35:- Jesus says that I am the bread that came from heaven and if you do not partake in me you will not have eternal life How is this a OC? Jesus said unless you are born again you cannot enter the Kingdom of God and how is this OC (John 3-3) ? If it was a law that Jesus was telling to Nicodemus then he would have understood it clearly, better than any of the scholars of this day.
I can post 1000 questions that you cannot answer, so please stop streading such false teachings.
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Sreeram
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| | 2012/1/17 11:55 | Profile |
| | Re: | | roadsign-- Quote:
Does that make any sense?
No, It doesn't, sorry.
It is a scriptural truth that if one is truly keeping the spirit of the law, then one will not break the letter of the law. It is the law itself that breathes the spirit in us. You can't claim to be led by the spirit while disreguarding what brings forth the spirit to begin with.
Here is an example to demonstrate how one keeps both the letter and spirit of the law. If we break the letter of the law (sin), we automatically break the spirit of the law.
Deuteronomy 25:4, "Thou shalt not muzzle the ox when he treadeth out the corn."
Deuteronomy 25:4 is the letter of the law. In 1 Corinthians 9, Paul shows us the spirit of this same law. The spiritual meaning of "thou shalt not muzzle an ox" is "thou shalt not prevent a worker from eating, etc." In other words, when someone is working, they are to enjoy the fruits of their labor and buy food with what they are given.
Now, is it possible to break the letter of this law, yet keep the spirit of the law, at the same time? No, it is not.
Is there any reason we can give to justify sinning? No. It is not possible to break the letter of the law, and at the same time keep the spirit of the law, when it comes to God's knowledge of sin as revealed in His Law. Because when one breaks the letter of the law, that is breaking the spirit of the law. When one breaks the spirit of the law, one breaks the letter of the law. That is sin, breaking the law. The law includes both letter and spirit.
Romans 2:13-15, "(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.) |
| | 2012/1/17 13:28 | |
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