| Poster | Thread | pilgrim777
Member
Joined: 2011/9/30
Posts: 1211
| | Re: | | Quote:
Listen... we dont worship the paper or ink. We dont use God's Word to our own advantage, or to rule over people, etc. We agree on that. That would be worshipping it (putting it above God).
But the Bible is God's revelation about Himself. It is the story of redemption. It is how God communicates with His people. It's how we learn about Him. He teaches us thru the Spirit, using His written and revealed Word.
Thats why unbelievers can not understand or comprehend it. They are missing the key ingredient: the Spirit.
Conversly, if someone is a believer they have the Spirit... but if they never open their Bible they also can not be taught.
But again, I state... the problem in the church today at large is NOT that people think too highly of the Bible! My goodness, who is foolish enough to entertain that idea? For several decades now "believers" have ignored the Bible and relied on emotionalism, feelings... and "the Spirit" to lead them and guide them... and we now have a train wreck in most churches in America.
Yes, we need the Spirit!! But we also need the very Words of God!
I'm not going to get drawn into another stupid debate about versions. Most people dont know what they are talking about when it comes to that issue, but it rarely stops anyone from voicing their opinions... and it leads to arguments... and then the thread gets locked... etc etc.
I don't disagree with a thing you say.
Except
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.
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This is not a stupid discussion.
And I don't see any reason why this thread would get locked. This thread is not about Bible versions. You are right, that is not something any of us want to get embroiled in.
Pilgrim |
|  2012/1/12 12:02 | Profile | pilgrim777
Member
Joined: 2011/9/30
Posts: 1211
| | Re: | | Sorry, you see that as bating, because I don't know what you believe then. Although, your latest post was very helpful so I think you would answer my 3 questions this way.
No
No
No
Was I right?
Smile bro,
Pilgrim |
| | 2012/1/12 12:04 | Profile | MaryJane
Member
Joined: 2006/7/31
Posts: 3057
| | Re: | | Krispy wrote:
Yes, we need the Spirit!! But we also need the very Words of God!
__________
I can and do say Amen to this. I agree completely.
God bless
mary |
| | 2012/1/12 12:15 | Profile | wayneman
Member
Joined: 2009/1/24
Posts: 453
Michigan
| | Re: | | BTW, Krispy, this essay was inspired by your post about David Cloud the other day. I checked his website and found a perfect example of how biblical authority is no safeguard against subjectivism. Here you have a guy who thinks that Christianity is all about correct dogma, and that everyone who doesn't meekly submit to the Gospel According to David Cloud deserves to be verbally abused. No one else is allowed to be right. That is the psychology of fundamentalism.
It is hard to imagine a more radical subjectivism than what biblical fundamentalism has produced.
An outbreak of mystical Christianity could not possibly produce more doctrinal confusion than biblicism already has.
I understand your desire to have an objective criterion of doctrinal truth that all can agree upon, but we just don't have one.
So whether we are mystics or biblicists, we are stuck with subjectivity.
_________________
Wayne Kraus
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| | 2012/1/12 12:28 | Profile |
| | | 2012/1/12 12:28 | | roadsign
Member
Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777
| | Re: | | Well, well, Wayneman! The words, The Bible is the Mark of the Beast! near the beginning is enough to raise anybodys dander especially here, where we zealously protect the holy writ. One needs to take a few deep breaths before getting past those words - without the high-alert alarm staying stuck in the on position.
Here is my response. Let me know if it resonates with your thoughts:
Quote:
So many believers from so many different church traditions are revolting against Biblicism that I wonder if this is the first stirring of a new back-to-Jesus movement. I hope so.
Now that Pilgrim has clarified the meaning of Biblicism, I can admit that I have joined these ranks. The Cult of Biblicism was what put Jesus to the cross, and it continues to war against his costly gift of grace.
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Clearly, Sola Scriptura has not worked out the way it was supposed to.
True! Conflict over biblical interpretations has not abated especially among those who know every jot and title. But what about defending Sola Fides and Sola Gracia?
Im convinced that the cult of Biblicism will continue to raise its ugly head in Christianity as long as the true church exists on earth. There will always be impostors. And no reformation will wipe it out for good. It never has.
Quote:
The doctrine of biblical inerrancy, which was supposed to set Truth on objective grounds and guard against subjectivism has instead led to the most arbitrary kind of subjectivism: we can believe whatever we want to believe, and make the Bible tell us we are right.
Yes, even a claim of inerrancy means little. People say: The Bible says it: I believe it: that settles it! But they may also be the ones who oppose Gods redeemed followers and his redemptive grace - even while justifying themselves with the Bible.
Quote:
The reason is that the Bible, by its very nature, has no authority. It is a helpless book, totally at the mercy of its interpreters.
Yes, the Bible is no magic book. It seems that God made an astronomical risk by putting the scriptures in the hands of sinful human beings. Obviously it was a worthwhile risk: Many have found the path of salvation - even amidst all the abuses of scripture.
Quote:
We can even use inerrancy to prove that the Bible is false,
True too! The the word, inerrancy now bites us back . I think the problem is that those on both sides of the argument apply a cultural meaning to inerrant: perfectionism. Its like Jesus command Be Perfect. From a perfectionist/legalist perspective, it means: be free from flaws/mistakes/ errors. Like in a perfect exam: no mistakes.
Quote:
Inerrancy is one of the very few religious doctrines that can be proven wrong, but it remains the foundation of Industrial Religion.
Yes, that may be because the word inerrant expresses more what something is NOT you know, like the word atheism. Defining yourself by what you are NOT doesnt say much about what you are. I prefer the word reliable, - as in this title: The Historical Reliability of the Gospels by Craig Blomberg.
Quote:
The doctrine of inerrancy has destroyed the faith of millions by making the Bible the supreme authority of heaven and earth, and then basing its authority on a standard of journalistic perfection that it does not meet up to.
Bart Ehrman is a good example. Hes also using this argument to destroy peoples confidence in the Bible. Actually, in my opinion hes just baptizing unbelief.
But maybe there must be a death before there can be a resurrection even for the Bible. The death I speak of is the false image that reigns in the consciences of countless. Its the image that God is a tyrant patriarchal dictator looking for ways to catch people in sins and to punish them mercilessly. Thats one of the fruits of the cult of Biblicism.
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Why then do we cling so stubbornly to the creed of Biblicism?
Because the Bible is an object that he can control, whereas the Living Word of God, Jesus, is a Subject who acts upon and controls us.
Biblicism allows us to have our cake and eat it too. The flesh can rule supreme, be in control, be self-manager - even while feeling justified. Biblicism is a way of baptizing the fallen sinful nature.
Quote:
The Word of God is not a static deposit of truth that God has handed over to men and devils to do with as they please. The Word of God is an ongoing event: the event of God speaking to us.
Yet the word of God can only become alive within through authentic regeneration, and then it becomes more and more alive as the Spirit rules more and more. But oh, how much the flesh wants to usurp the Sprits supremacy in our lives! It is an ongoing battle between life (spirit) and death (letter) really.
Quote:
May He speak to us today and deliver us from the Bibleonian Captivity!
Amen!
Yet, I am mindful of the Babylonian captivity of ancient Israel, and even 70 AD. Such divine judgment on the people of God is the way to decimate this cult of Biblicism. As it was after the Babel tower dispersion: People were now vulnerable, needy and in a position where their only hope is Gods redemption. Divine judgment is therefore an act of mercy on fallen humanity.
And it will also preserve the living Word.
Diane
_________________
Diane
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| | 2012/1/12 12:41 | Profile | KingJimmy
Member
Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC
| | Re: | | Quote:
So whether we are mystics or biblicists, we are stuck with subjectivity.
This is actually the argument of post-modernism.
_________________
Jimmy H
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| | 2012/1/12 13:28 | Profile |
| | Bibliocentric vs Christocentric | | John 5:39-40 ..You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life, and these are they which testify of Me. But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.
Jesus is clearly stating that there is no life in the Scriptures. It does not matter whether it is in the Old or the New Testament, there is no life in the Scriptures. If there was life in the words themselves and the knowledge of these words then the Pharisees would be men full of life. Yet what did Jesus say about these men? They were full of dead mens bones, whitewashed tombs. They knew the word but they did not know God.
Words are vehicles for communicating. The word itself is a symbol of what is real. You may read about the truth or even hear about the truth and they may be precursors to life, but they are not life itself. Life comes to those who willingly come to Jesus and meet Him personally. And so the word without Jesus is empty and meaningless to the readers. It is in the person of Jesus that we are saved, and then He illuminates the word. The word of God must never be worshipped, how silly to worship the description rather that what is described. All of the word of God is useful to point us towards God, but it is only in His presence that anything is achieved.
A man could read the sermon on the mount and rightly conclude that this was a masterpiece of teaching. Yet, outside of Gods presence, outside of His Spirit, all those who try and live by these commands will fail miserably or have some success and become self-righteous. The Bible is a treasure from God, but it is Jesus Himself, of whom the whole Bible testifies, who is the Word. Jesus is the same yesterday today and forever. Heaven and earth will pass away but the Word, Jesus, is eternal.
I was saved knowing virtually nothing of Scripture. Men were saved in the first three hundred years of the church by the declaration of Truth, Jesus being the truth, by the Holy Spirit of the living God. After I was saved I devoured the Scriptures and as I read it I saw my own story in it. All the promises, the new heart, the love, the joy, my Jesus it testified to in all of the word. The Spirit had laid it all on my heart and every page was a confirmation and it was exciting. I had no intellectual battles. My spirit witnessed with the word of God. I read many parts that I did not understand but there was no resisting in my spirit, just a sense that somewhere down the line, if it pleased my Lord, I would understand.
So to have life we must come to Jesus. The word come , does not mean one time just as the word abide, is a continuous action verb better stated keep abiding. So we ought to keep coming to Jesus. Not keep getting saved, but keep seeking Him out. He is a treasure to be sought after, just as the deer panteth for the water brooks, then so my soul continually panteths after Him. He is my light and I detest the darkness. He is perfect light and I live in shades of gray at best. How could it be otherwise for in my flesh there is no good thing. Until it is raised in incorruption I can only know Him in measure.
That is an agony and a despair that can be hard to live with. The only thing that makes it bearable is the measure I receive from Him daily, His blessings are new every morning and His steadfast love never ceases and His grace is sufficient to keep me wanting more. And every so often I am enraptured and filled to capacity, a continual baptism of the Holy Spirit if you like. And I am strengthened and encouraged and changed in the fire of His manifest presence and I move to a different level. Gratefulness and thankfulness keeps me in this place. I have found eternal life in the person and the manifest presence of Jesus and the Scriptures testify to that and there is unity
..Frank
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| | 2012/1/12 13:34 | | pilgrim777
Member
Joined: 2011/9/30
Posts: 1211
| | Re: Bibliocentric vs Christocentric | | Roadsign and Appolus,
Thank you for your contributions. I am so blessed.
Christocentric,
Pilgrim
Faith shatters all religion! |
| | 2012/1/12 13:56 | Profile | Sree
Member
Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1953
| | Re: | | Can someone who says and has posted that Bible restricts the freedom in Jesus that believers have, quote me one such instance where the word has mislead them or church away from teachings of Holy Spirit?
If anyone feels that the scripture is a burden and turns them away from holiness of God then he or she has not understood the spirit of scripture and has not entered the new covenant at all, the law of liberty.
_________________
Sreeram
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| | 2012/1/12 15:08 | Profile |
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