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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : An omniscient God foresees Christ yet establishes law 'forever'

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pilgrim777
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Joined: 2011/9/30
Posts: 1211


 Re:

Yahshuans?

 2012/1/11 19:05Profile









 Re:

pilgrim777 - Yahshuans?

boy I can't stop laughing pilgrim777, brilliant answer.

 2012/1/11 19:09









 Re:

Quote:
with all due respect i ask you this, which one of the laws is impossible to keep?



Though not impossible, just for the sake of curiosity, do you keep Exodus 22:18?

"You shall not permit a sorceress to live."

If you do, I'd be curious where exactly you live.

 2012/1/11 19:24
pilgrim777
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Joined: 2011/9/30
Posts: 1211


 Re:

Good to know that someone has a sense of humor.

 2012/1/11 19:43Profile
Elibeth
Member



Joined: 2011/8/14
Posts: 1148


 Re: An omniscient God foresees Christ yet establishes law 'forever'

My brothers,
May I take this in a little different direction?
In the NEW TESTAMENT,God has called us into a new thing.
For ALL of us,that believe in Jesus...( and we cannot have Jesus, without
The Word,..because He is the Word,..cannot be separated.

Jesus came preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God.
Through His Most Prescious Blood, an entrance has been made for us to enter in.
Jn.1:12,..But as many as recieved Him,to them gave he Power to become
The children of God,even to them that believe on His name...."and His Name is called, The Word of God"( Rev.19:13)

He has called us into a kingdom,...where He is King.
'THE WAY'...
'Washing of the Water,by the Word.'....as He,...His Spirit, the Word, brings things up in us,that are not in keeping with His Way,..His will,...His Word,..
Then He wants to wash whatever is contrary/ agains't ,..away,with the water of the Word.
" For as many as are led by the Spirit of God,they are the sons / children
of God."
He wants to circumcise our hearts,...to cut away the things that are not in keeping with His will / way,...and it can be very painful,...if we,through His Spirit will allow the King,Jesus,the Spirit of the Living God to Reign over us.

Please except this with my most humbleness of spirit,

Elizabeth


 2012/1/11 20:43Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri

 Re:

Ephah's question is, "By the way, you didn’t answer my question, “which of the commandments is impossible to keep?”"

They are too numerous to go through and list. Commandments involving the land, priesthood, and sacrifice have all been impossible to fulfill since 70AD; making the Covenant void. It may come as a shock to some, but the priests are said to flick the blood into the air behind the vail because the Ark was missing after the Babylonian captivity. They were going through the motions. They had no sacred fire or Ark. But they kept on propping up the covenant and making innovations to compensate for these problems. At last (by the second revolt in 135 AD) the Temple and Priesthood were all destroyed, the Jews were banned from the land and Jerusalem was renamed Alea Capitolina and Israel 'Palestine'. The only real survivors in religious practice of these events were the Pharisees (Perushim) and Nazarenes (Notzrim). The Essenes, Sadducees and freedom groups (Zealots, Galileans, Sacarii, etc.) were all ended after Akiba (Akiva) arrived.

Paul said that if righteousness could have come by the law it would have; but it cannot. As it is written... Galatians 3:21 "Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law." All the law can do is lead us to Christ and teach us about God's ways. It is spiritual, but fallen man is carnal.

Paul said that he pressed towards the "mark" for the prize. Paul was pretty good at keeping the law. Here we read... "Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews; concerning the law, a Pharisee; concerning zeal, persecuting the church; concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless." (Philippians 3:5,6). We know that this mark was not perfection of the law because he counted all his works of righteousness as dung that he might win Christ (Philippians 3:8). "If righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain." (Galatians 2:21) What was the 'mark' he pressed towards? It was a higher order of spiritual reality made possible only by being 'IN Christ' through the New Covenant.

As we begin to take a closer look at the issues its good to realize that the Jews codified the Law of Moses into 613 laws, but this is not a perfect representation of the Old Covenant. The law contains the unchanging personality of God in what it means to be holy and love, etc. Jesus said that all of the law and prophets could be summarized into just 2. Love the Lord with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, and your neighbor as yourself. This we can agree on.

There are plenty of resources to at least take a look at what the laws are. What studying these laws did for me at the Institute was to make me realize that I don't understand what God means when I conceptualize the meaning of "Love the Lord your God" or "Love your neighbor as yourself, etc." My preconceived ideas of what those concepts were- were often lacking in the meaning of God's terms. Paul said that the law is good if it is used lawfully. This does not mean we are to bring people under it.

The law of God exposes sin- plain and simple. It converts the soul by showing us our need for Christ. It was not written for the righteous but for sinners. And it was added because of transgressions. It exposed the law of sin that is in fallen man. As Paul said it- when the commandment came sin revived and I died. So we see then that it is a schoolmaster to lead us to Christ. The law was in fact a light that would light the path to Christ; but the people would not that the glory of that law should shine upon them; hence by analogy, the veil that was placed over the face of Moses is still upon their hearts. They would not, that the "light" (glory) of the law be shone upon them. Their only option was to turn to Christ so the vail would be removed and they could understand how God had only TEMPORARILY added the Law until the SEED should come to whom the promises were made.

When the people that sat in darkness saw a great light, they were seeing the Glory of God embodied in the living Word of God (John 1). When you are in sin as an impenitent, you do not desire to see this light as it is contrary to those who love darkness because their deeds are evil. As it is written... men loved darkness rather than light because their deeds are evil. The Law of Moses had a glory, but it was a fading glory. Keep this in mind. The New Covenant is called 'a better covenant' numerous times in Hebrews. Why? Because it is the fulfillment of God's design in dealing with the Fall of Man. The Law was only temporary.

The first laws given to man (In Jewish tradition) were the "Noachide Laws". This was a series of 7 laws that dealt with the basic categories of sin. Then came the 10 Commandments. then the Jews codified the law in 613 laws. This is not the whole law- but covers most of the issues. Some of them deal with the nation or the priesthood, etc. Others are relavent for understanding how God defines certain behaviors. We are dependent on Jewish tradition for much of what we know about the 613 Laws and I find it suspect.

In Acts 15 we see a short list of commands being put on the Gentiles Christians. The Jewish Christians were zealous of the law and many continued to keep it as an identification of who they were as God's people and not for salvation (Acts 21:17-25; Acts 24:13-20). There is proof of this else where especially in Galatians when certain came from James and Peter to a "law approach" and left the Gentiles fellowship. Again, not for salvation, but as their culture and identity. We are gentiles and we are commanded to abide in the calling that we are called in (I Corinthians 7:18). Surely Paul rebuked Peter because he risked splitting the Church that had been unified by the breaking down of the middle wall of partition (as Ephesians calls it). Paul would not have it so he withstood Peter to the face.

If tradition is to be believed, the Oral Law, if there ever were such a thing which I highly doubt, was codified (in the 2nd century) and now their is a "shield" over the law. It is my view that this so-called Oral Law in significant ways started the process of keeping the Jewish people from having the light they need to lead them to Christ. Dealing with this issue alone is one of the greatest challenges facing the practicing Jews in my opinion. The Law, when used lawfully quantifies Sin and shows us a Holy God. It shows us some ways to understand how to deal with our fellow man. It was replaced by the New Covenant and is dead in the water to contribute to the Spirituality, that is to help Christians 'be made perfect', because keeping it is still a fleshly exercise. Having begun in the Spirit let us walk in the Spirit. Adding Law to a backslidden people is not the answer, but rather is the road to anathema.



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Robert Wurtz II

 2012/1/11 20:47Profile
ginnyrose
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Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7534
Mississippi

 Re: An omniscient God foresees Christ yet establishes law 'forever'

It would be the most helpful if when discussing the law that it would be defined which law you are talking about.

The OT law as given to Moses consisted of three different types of law.

1. The religious law that dealt with the ceremonial rituals, like animal sacrifice.

2. Civil law that dealt with capital punishments, how to deal with criminal behavior.

3. The moral law. It deals with human relationships and life in general - sanitation, for example.

As it is being discussed here on SI one would conclude that the Christian is at liberty to indulge in all manner of sins because he is no longer under the law but is at liberty, he is freed from the law. This is licentiousness at its worst.

The NT teaches that the Christian will be marked by holiness without which no man will see the LORD. This has always been God's will for man, be it OT or NT. It was never right to steal, to go about as a slanderer, a gossip, etc. Homosexuality, adultery was always sin. Jesus never did cancel God's prohibition of this law or any other that govern human relationships. While it is true that moral living will not save a body, it is equally true that a godly person's lifestyle will not be marked by lawlessness, 'workers of iniquity.' (Luke 13:27: But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.)


The ceremonial law was fulfilled in Christ Jesus by him dying and shedding his blood. Read Hebrews.

The moral law was reinforced and expanded - read the sermon on the mount.

The civil law was given to the state to enforce. The church's role is to evangelize, not hunt down criminals and mete out punishment. Read Romans 13.

If the mods and others on SI will agree that the Christian is at liberty to sin willfully without repentance, this site is doomed!


_________________
Sandra Miller

 2012/1/11 21:34Profile
pilgrim777
Member



Joined: 2011/9/30
Posts: 1211


 Re:

Ginny,

The context of the discussion is whether right standing with God comes from the observance of laws and nothing to do with how much one can get away with. That is not even a Christ-centered concept.

It has been posited many times in this thread that "one MUST keep the law". I do not know if the scope of this law has been defined or what "keep" means.

Pilgrim

 2012/1/11 22:01Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri

 Re:

It is my view that Paul suffered a great many persecutions because his opposition refused to take the time to carefully listen to his teachings. I find it disingenuous to be so willfully obtuse as to slanderously accuse him of saying things like, "let us do evil that good may come." (Romans 3:9) Paul never said anything like that. These people will answer to God for their stubborn ignorance. Paul said it, "whose damnation is just." (Romans 3:9b) Men are expected to know what we are able to know and will answer to God for obscuring truth when they could have understood it.

Paul carefully explained (and the writer to the Hebrews carefully explained) how the Old Covenant (first covenant) was to be replaced by the New Covenant. A primary aspect of the Old Covenant was circumcision. In fact, this dated back to Abraham. It was a figurative practice pointing to an eventual Spiritual reality of circumcision of the heart. Paul was careful to show that even circumcision of the flesh was 'added' until the Seed should come. Galatians, uniquely written with Paul's own handwriting, addressed how coming under these type laws meant that Christ would profit us nothing. One of his strong statements, that could easily apply in this thread: "Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?" The First Covenant (Old Covenant) in relation to the New Covenant is shown by analogy to be as Ishmael that persecuted Isaac. Paul's response to them?

Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. (Galatians 4-5)


Listen at Paul's strong language here. Cast out the bondwoman and her son! for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. Paul goes on to UNDO the damage done by those that BEWITCHED the Galatians by asking them more questions.

But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.

I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain. (Galatians 4:9-11)

Paul was horrified by what was going on and declared anathema on those causing the confusion. The Galatians were in danger of coming back under the beggarly elements of the Law through teachings similar to as has been suggested in this thread. It is a subtle danger that sounds spiritual, but is fleshly and carnal. We need to turn our hearing aid up when we read Galatians. Paul tells us clearly that we cannot take a carnal commandment, designed for the Old Man and make him a Spiritual man with it. The Law cannot produce the Fruit of the Spirit. John Baptist, that preacher of righteousness told the people that the ax is laid to the root and if the tree does not bear fruit it is cast into the fire. God had been winking at ignorance for several thousand years, but a new day had arrived with a new possibility. This Gospel was preached to the Disciples and became a reality at Pentecost when the Holy Spirit was sent and men could be Baptized into the Body of Christ by the Spirit. All that Christ accomplished on the Cross is available to those that are IN HIM. Therefore if any man be in Christ He is a New Creature, old things have passed away and all have become new.

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (Romans 8:2-4)

This is the key. It is useless to suggest Christians are antinomian (lawless) because they do not keep the Mosaic Laws. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. God's design in the New Covenant is a New Creature. Jeremiah 31:33 tells us God will write His laws in our hearts and minds. We are to receive a new spirit and a new heart. We become dead to the Sin and alive unto God. He works IN those that are IN Christ to both will and do His good pleasure. The indwelling Spirit makes possible the bearing of fruit that John Baptist said without which the tree would be hewn down. Paul continues and deals his opposition a deadly blow:

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. (Galatians 5:22, 23)

This is the key to understanding Paul's teaching on the Old Covenant and the New Covenant. There is no law against the behaviors exhibited by those that walk in the Spirit. The Law was never made for righteous men and that is what men and women become that are TRULY born of God. They do by nature those things contained in the law that relate to the image of God in man. Not the carnal ordinances, but the outworking of the personality of God akin to how it was manifest in Christ. etc. etc.


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2012/1/11 22:43Profile









 Re:

-- RobertW -- I see you have great knowledge, that was a very intuitive post. Very well said. I gotta admit you almost made a convert out of me. This one is for you:

Zechariah 14:16-17

Quote:
And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship Yahweh, and to keep THE FEAST OF TABERNACLES. 17: And it shall be, that who so will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, Yahweh of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. 18: And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. 19: THIS SHALL BE THE PUNISHMENT OF EGYPT, AND THE PUNISHMENT OF ALL NATIONS THAT COME NOT UP TO KEEP THE FEAST OF TABERNACLES.



Just this one verse (and there are plenty more) discredits your entire argument.

Zechariah chapter 14 introduces the millennial age. The chapter tells of the liberation of Jerusalem and how the Messiah will be king over the whole earth. The chapter ends with all nations keeping the LAWS OF THE MOST HIGH. The Feast of Tabernacles - that great feast which symbolises the very presence of Yahshua our Messiah

Brethren, In view of these prophecies concerning the end time, it is utter folly to dismiss the Laws of the Most High, especially the Feast of Tabernacles, as being inapplicable to Gentile nations.

 2012/1/11 23:07





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