| An omniscient God foresees Christ yet establishes law 'forever'|
In Leviticus 7, God is commanding Moses on His laws governing sacrifices and offerings. God stipulates which and how much of the oblations are to be for Aron and his sons, and in verse 36 says that this stipulation is to be 'for ever:'
Lev 7:36 Which the LORD commanded to be given them of the children of Israel, in the day that he anointed them, by a statute for ever throughout their generations.
My question is how does an omniscient God stipulate this command to be 'for ever' with the knowledge of Christ to come and take away 'the first' and establish 'the second' a la Hebrews 10:9-10?
Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
| 2012/1/9 6:57||Profile|
| Re: An omniscient God foresees Christ yet establishes law 'forever'|
The law is established forever by being fulfilled in Christ.
| 2012/1/9 7:06||Profile|
| Re: |
Yes of course. Yet, the law is established forever by the first being taken away and the second established.
The taking away of the first explicitly means that it was not established forever. It is Christ's work that is established forever. Indeed:
Heb 10:6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
Heb 10:8 ...Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
So, my understanding is that God establishes the law (first) knowing:
Heb 10:3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
and yet says of the practices of giving a share to Aron and his sons that it is 'forever.' So my guess is that (maybe) this 'forever' is more akin to 'always.' So it is always to be this way (until the second is established).
Any other comments? I'll look into the original language. . .
| 2012/1/9 8:23||Profile|
| Re: |
Quote: """Heb 10:6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure."""
But! to this day Israel is preparing to implement the temple offerings and sacrifices. That is why we must separate the old from the new. In Christ all things have become New, but Israel still won't believe that their Messiah has already come.
Grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. In these last days God has spoken to us by His Son, not from behind the curtain that was torn from top to bottom to get to the Holy of Hollies, the Holy of Holies is now Christ and His Spirit that is in us.
In Christ: Phillip
| 2012/1/9 18:46||Profile|
Lake Charles, LA
| Re: |
God commanded it forever in Christ Jesus, at this time in Lev He was giving a picture of Him who would come. At least that is the way I understand. Hebrews talks as if the first was replaced, and in our sight in time it was. But the Law is a picture of Christ and all that He is and does.
| 2012/1/9 21:58||Profile|
| Re: |
Matthew 5 (The Message) Verse 17-19
17 -"Don't suppose for a minute that I have come to demolish the Scriptures - either God's Law or the Prophets. I'm not here to demolish but to complete. I am going to put it all together, pull it all together in a vast panorama.
-18- God's Law is more real and lasting than the stars in the sky and the ground at your feet. Long after stars burn out and earth wears out, God's Law will be alive and working.
-19- "Trivialize even the smallest item in God's Law and you will only have trivialized yourself. But take it seriously, show the way for others, and you will find honor in the kingdom.
The last time I checked, forever meant forever, not for a period of time. Our Savior did his part by fulfilling the law as a shinning example for us to follow, thus to do likewise.
He did not teach the law and died for it so we can transgress it.
No! he did not come to do it all for you so you wouldnt have to, he did it so we can be encouraged to live as he did.
| 2012/1/9 22:45|
Lake Charles, LA
| Re: |
First, Jesus Christ did not die for the Law... "He did not teach the law and died for it..." (sigh)
Leviticus points to Jesus Christ, not to itself. Jesus Christ is bigger then the five books of Moses as they speak of Him. He is eternal, everlasting. He was before the Leviticus Law, and He is going to be once all has passed away. His words remain forever. Yes, His commandments align with the Law because He gave Moses the Law. But we live by the Spirit, if not then we have not Jesus... Keeping the Law without the Spirit isn't what is to be taught friend.
| 2012/1/9 23:26||Profile|
| Re: |
We must bear in mind that we are dealing with a covenant concept. When we think about covenants we need to know that at death covenants are voided. Otherwise slavery would extend into eternity. There are numerous places (>600) in the OT where the word translated 'for ever' (AV olam) or forever (in other versions) is found. The simplest answer to this is found as we examine Exodus 21:6.
His master shall lead him to the tribunal of God, and then he shall lead him to the door at the doorpost, and his master shall pierce his ear with a small awl, and he shall be subject to him forever. (Exodus 21:6)
Here forever is aion (LXX) and olam in Hebrew (MSS). The one desiring to remain in the home beyond his first obligation could opt for this ceremony that is said to make the slave subject to the slave master 'forever' (olam). Obviously this is impossible in the normal sense of 'forever' because these type contracts are off at death while others, such as a testament, go into force at death. In the same sense the Old Covenant ends at death.
Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. (Romans 7:4)
For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. (Galatians 2:19)
The law was 'added' because of transgressions until the Seed should come to whom the promises were made. That Seed is Jesus Christ. They that have been baptized into Jesus Christ by the Spirit experience both death to the Law and death to the Sin. This is what Paul explains to us. Moreover, it is worth pointing out that practicing Orthodox Jews (non-Karaite Jews) typically do not view the Law in a strict constructionism, but view it as a 'living document' in much the same way some view the Constitution of the USA as a living document. They have been making void the Law through their traditions wholesale for over 2000 years through a system of halaka.
Also bear in mind that the writer to the Hebrews told us before the Temple was destroyed that the First Covenant which had waxed old was ready to vanish away. It passed away in 70AD when Titus destroyed the Temple and the priesthood. From that time unto this there has been no way to service the covenant. Blood sacrifice is the only way to bring remission of sins under that First Covenant. The Titus Arch in Rome is one of the great reminders of the ending of the First Covenant. It was built in around AD 81 in part by some of the Jews that were taken captive by Titus when he took Jerusalem. The sobering aspect of this picture is the carrying away of the Golden Lampstand. It had stood to signify that Israel in the Land was to be a light to the nations. To a large degree they failed, and there was nothing left but to sweep the last vestiges of the Old Covenant system away to make way for the New Covenant. From this point forward there would be absolutely no way to maintenance the Covenant. By reason of death the Aaronic priesthood was not allowed to continue. The Ark was taken when they were carried to Babylon and the Sacred Fire was long extinguished. No Sacred Fire-no service. In Christ the Jews could then come under the New Covenant and its eternal Priesthood after the order of Melchizedek. The Temple of God tabernacling among men was established through the Blood of Christ, His Priesthood, the baptism of Fire signified over the heads of the people, etc. were all signs of the Old vanishing and the New having come. etc. etc.
Robert Wurtz II
| 2012/1/9 23:37||Profile|
| Re: |
-Lovefirst- my post is all scriptural, if you want to post a rebuttal, please back it up with some scriptural facts.
Secondly, you're advocating the pre-existence theory, which is a whole new thread by itself. Let's stick to the topic.
| 2012/1/9 23:40|
| Att. Jimmy |
I have been told the term 'forever' refers to a long time. The term 'forever and ever' means indefinitely. Jimmy, you are a Bible scholar, what do you say?
| 2012/1/10 0:27||Profile|