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Lisa

Hi bro_willy,

Like Miccah, I have said all that I need to say or want to say on this subject. I don't feel compelled to investigate Universalism anymore than I already have.

The Scriptures and the Lord Jesus Himself are very clear on this subject. I have heard people say the Jesus and the Apostles were superstitious and just believed old superstitions of their day. That would mean that Jesus did not tell us the whole truth, then. In that respect He would have misled and deceived us and that would have disqualifed Him from accomplishing our redemption as the sinless Son of God.

Therefore, I believe Jesus was crystal clear on what He said and that was His intention. I see no ambiguity at all in His statements and no one talked more about Hell and everlasting judgment than He.

Likewise, there is no firm teaching on annihilation. The Scriptures seem very clear to me also on everlasting punishment.

If we love men we will not lie to them, will we?

It is not Christlike to lie to men and withhold the truth from them. If you want to know what Christlike is, look at Christ's life and words again in the NT and observe how He was not consumed with winning a popularity contest. Telling the Pharisees that their father is the devil is not exactly Dale Carnegie's teaching on "How to Influence People and Win Friends", but that's not what Jesus was about.

I am glad that Jesus shoots straight with us.

If you love God and love people, tell them the truth. This is the only life you can make a decision to choose Christ.

I too am pulling myself out of this thread.

Thanks for the conversation and I am glad you have not made up your mind yet.

Pilgrim

Willy

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Jimmy H

bro_willy:

I do not know what has already been said as I have not taken the time to read the rest of this thread (perhaps that is poor form but I am pressed for time). I would like to make a few comments.

If I understand universalism correctly one of its tenets is that all religious roads are valid paths to enter into the kingdom of God, i.e. that Hinduism, Christianity, Islam, or any other religion is equally valid as long as one believes in a God and follows that belief with a "pure" heart. Unfortunately this idea is totally contradictory to very explicit teachings of Jesus Christ. He said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No man cometh unto the Father but by me." He condemned the devoutly religious Jews and told them their Father was the devil. Now these people were very devout and kept the tenets of Judaism with their whole heart. The Bible tells us that there is no other name than Jesus mentioned in heaven or in earth whereby we must be saved. Christianity is exclusive by its own very clear teachings. Therefore one cannot be a Christian and a universalist at the same time. The two are mutually exclusive belief systems. That is, if I believe there are many ways to enter the kingdom of God then I cannot be a Christian for the teachings of true Christianity oppose universalism, and if I am a Christian I cannot be a universalist without turning my back on the teachings of Christianity which would make me no longer a Christian.

One of Rob Bells teachings, if I understand correctly, is that there is no hell. He no doubt points to the fact that if God really is a God of love then He would not send people to Hell to be destroyed by fire, or punished eternally depending on your particular interpretation of the nature of Hell. There are two points to be make here I think. First, Hell is real and Hell is a place of fire, torment, and destruction. Scripture is very clear about this. No amount of bending and twisting can make this fact go away unless one chooses to, by some deception, simply ignore these very clear scriptural teachings. Second is the nature of love. Allow me to use an analogy. I can say that the law enforcement personnel in my area good. Suppose a burglar breaks through my door in the middle of the night shouting that he is about to kill my wife and I and brandishing a weapon. Suppose I pick up a gun and shoot this burglar, wounding him and saving my wife from harm. My act of judgment on the burglar is an act of love to my wife. The police arrive and the burglar is hauled off to jail while I am vindicated in my actions. The burglar is then sentenced to prison for attempting to kill my wife while I continue to live a free man. You see, the act of sending the burglar away is a good and righteous act by law enforcement for the burglar has done what is evil. To define love in such a way that no justice or judgement is done makes love meaningless and makes right and wrong without definition.

bro_willy, I would strongly advise you to burn your book by Rob Bell, and stop studying universalism or any other ism. Turn back to the Bible and begin to prayerfully study it daily. Universalism is a deception whose unfortunate end is the very Hell it seeks to avoid.

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Travis

bro_willy:

OK, I read all of the posts. I see better what your issue is. I must say that Rob Bell and the "Christian" universalists have woven a subtle web comprised of many verses taken out of Biblical context. As has already been stated it is the mark of many cults and also of sincere believers who are off into some form of error or another to get a picture of God or of doctrine in their mind and then seek scriptures to "prove" their doctrines. I am increasingly of the opinion that the term "proof text" should never enter into the language of a believer as it is almost always the mark of trying to prop up a man-made idea.

Brother, let me address one verse you quoted earlier but I would like to put it into context and look at what is being said.


Php 2:1-12
(1) If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies,
(2) Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.
(3) Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.
(4) Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.
(5) Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
(6) Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
(7) But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
(8) And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
(9) Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
(10) That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
(11) And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
(12) Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

We need to put this verse in its proper context of the letter of which it is an integral part and also in the context of the overall teaching of the New Testament. Paul says that there is coming a day in which every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord to the glory of God. Now lets talk about what this does and does not say. First it says that every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord. It does not say that the people who bow and confess will be righteous or accepted of God on that day. We have clear history in the gospels and in Acts of people with demonic spirits proclaiming that Jesus is God and that Paul was filled with the power of God. As I stated earlier there will be those in the last days who say, "Lord, Lord" and they will be told, "depart from me ye workers of iniquity." In Matt. we find Jesus separating the good from the evil and saying, "Mat 25:41
(41) Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:". Peter writes, "2Pe 3:7
(7) But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men."

In verse 12 of Philippians, the next verse, we find Paul saying that we should work out our salvation with fear and trembling. Why? If all will be saved what is there to fear if it is not the wrath and judgement of God.

Brother, do this with all of the verses that Bell puts forth as proofs of his doctrine. They will not stand the test of contextual scrutiny. Our brother Oracio was right when he advised you to flee from this thing. Many refer to it as heresy because believing in it can and will lead ultimately to a denial of the Lord and loss of salvation. I believe it is heresy and I would strongly encourage you to flee from it.

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Travis