| Re: |
Actually Paul, kept within the confines of the Law, if he didn't he never would have wrote Romans 13:1-3
"1 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same."
Paul was falsely accused and arrested, these individuals failed to file for a permit the law and governing authorities required of them. Jesus didn't break the law of the governing authorities, Peter fished and received a fish with two gold coins in his mouth for taxes.
Bottonline is we are to respect the Laws of the Land, don't like the laws of the land? Then Move. But it hurts our Christian witness when we try to be above the law everyone else is under and then when the "law enforcement" officers go to do their job we yell discrimination. It's not like this group was unaware of getting a permit they had a whole year. As for the insurance thing, your playing the bongos and playing a guitar and singing what could you possibly need insurance for?
We are not above the law because ultimately God has established that Authority for whatever reason for His Glory. I work with Law Enforcement Officers and these guys are no nonsense personalities that just want to do their job which is enforce the law. If they wanted to meet with the mayor they should have schedule a meeting with him and if he felt it was a big issue they could have gone to their city council meeting and be added on their agenda because in truth the mayor has very little power in the politics of a city really its the city council that makes some of the major decisions in the city.
| 2011/12/27 5:00||Profile|
| Re: |
I am seeing a need to draw finer lines between what is truly done for God and what is not.
Jesus said, Give to Caesar what is Caesars. Romans expounds on this: Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes
. If respect, then respect, if honor, then honor. Let no debt remain outstanding except the continuing debt to love one another. Rom. 13:7
When our state authorities are viewed, less as a recipient of our indebted honor and respect than as a means to advance our own interests - then we are violating Gods law in our hearts. Thats what I see as a problem with these Jesus Marchers at least the quote I posted earlier. The apostle Paul was arrested for very different reasons.
Lets admit, freedom of religious expression is not the same thing as freedom in Christ through salvation. We do not need the state to ensure our freedom in Christ. And we do not need freedom of religious expression in order to fulfill God's call on us.
If we cant find a Jesus card in the store, we can write our own greetings on a blank card. Actually that exercise would do us good! It makes us think for ourselves.
If we cant sing our Jesus songs and play bongos in the Town Hall, we can join a community choir and sing the Halleluiah Chorus and Jesus, I want Jesus in a legitimate concert venue. (Im in Canada, and that happens here!) Besides, having to submit to a choir director does ones musical aptitude a lot of good if not their character.
If we cant have a Jesus parade on the streets we can invite the town counselors to our homes for dinner and befriend them. Thats more effective anyway because then they can see who we really are - and hopefully meet Jesus through our character qualities. And we can always volunteer in a soup kitchen.
If we cant have the Lords Prayer in school, we can pray in our closets which is more effective anyway.
And on it goes
If God's people aren't striving to develop and use the freedoms they already have in Christ, why should the state to give them freedom of religious expression? You might merely end up having the Crusades all over again.
| 2011/12/27 6:58||Profile|
| Re: |
"OOOOH boy what would you guys have to say about reckless hooligans like Paul, Barnabus, John, Mark, Luke,and the hundreds of others who entered into places they were told to stay out of and preached the gospel."
Just to be sure, I thought the same thing brother Greg.
They would not have entered a place if they were told that they were barred. It would be against what Paul wrote about being at peace with all men and to obey the laws of the land. It wasn't their business to enter into law offices and government buildings holding placards or sing songs. They went where the people gathered or better yet, where the Holy Ghost was leading them.
And when they did enter into these parliamentary places, they were usually being dragged in, or in chains.
When they did enter a city, they mingled in with the everyday crowd and do what any evangelical Christian would do, evangelize.
Paul even shook the dust off his feet for the rejection of the gospel.
Even the Pharisees didn't say they couldn't come into the Temple, they just didn't want the name of Jesus preached.
Matthew 10:14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.
This of course is a vast difference between the Fathers of the early centuries than what these real "hooligans" were doing at Calgary's City Hall.
| 2011/12/27 9:07|
| Re: |
I thought I read on their blog, that they refused to get a permit because it required each in the group to have insurance. What kind? I don't know. I may of not read it right. They thought this was unconstitutional and decided to do it anyway. God knows the motives.
Whether we want to admit it or not, Christianity is more and more being discriminated against in the western world. It is sad, however we need to be witnesses for Christ (not fred phelps style(which isn't according to truth anyway) or angry preacher style, but show the love of Christ).
| 2011/12/27 12:35||Profile|
Northern Rockies, BC, Canada
| Re: |
Great points Matt and Diane.
It is good to keep one's conscience void of offence with God and man.
I spent enough time in my past going contrary against the law of the land to my own shame, and to my own destruction.
Truly, we live in Canada here, and I don't see a need to get into someone's face about my own beliefs. I've seen blessings go onto others by just working behind the scenes and supporting my brothers and sisters in meek and lowly ways.
| 2011/12/27 12:49||Profile|
| Re: Submission to Governing Authorities|
In first century Rome Christians were required as good citizens to offer a sacrifice to Caesar to prove their loyalty to the state. In N. Korea people are required to bow publically and acknowledge the supreme leader as a diety. In Islamic lands it is against the law to change your religion and follow Christ. In Central Asia churches have go register under the most impossible of regulations. House churches are forbidden. In China and Iran it is against the law to import Bibles.
In this country pastors may be forced to omit certain sections of scriptures to preach on because they foment hate. The more radical groups want to ban the Bible as a hate book. How do you apply Romans 13 to these situations.
We are for the most part law abiding citizens. But what are you going to do when the Bible is banned, preaching the gospel is illegal, and coming together to worship Christ is against the law. Can't happen you say. There are presently 52 nations where any expression of Christ is illegal.
There are already laws in the works or on the books that are making it difficult for Christians to express their faith in Christ. At some point there will be a loyalty oath required of all good citizens to give their allegiance to the state. Did I mention the price eill be to renounce Christ. This is already happening in Eritrea.
If you think all of this is academic. Look at the persecuted church. In 52 nations being a Christian is illegal. And you think it won't happen here????
So how will you apply Romans 13???????
| 2011/12/27 13:25|
| "Witness's?" |
hear me, those brothers and sisters can do as they see fit in the Lord, but as God the Holy Ghost is my Witness, i watched and read everything on that website, and it struck as limp and impotent, it smelled like flesh.
wanna do something for the Lord?, hide yourself away and wrestle in prayer, Len Ravenhill speaks AGAIN and AGAIN on this point.
OR.....of all the many brothers and sisters who labour in the LORD, i have been blessed to know, one brother comes to mind, and that's Patrick Ersig and family who labor in one of the most hellish places, downtown LA, skid row, and they've done this for quite a few years now, before that is was Detroit. ministering to the 'least of these', without a lot of fleshly fanfare, and God has given increase, many many lost tormented souls have been swept into the Kingdom of God, and Pat doesnt get caught up into that fleshly foolishness, and the chest pounding....no.
The Jonah Project, thats the ministry God laid on him...this other thing...yes, like was written, if God is with them, nothing can stand against them.....
...and for those who bemoan and wail, that "christians" in the western hemisphere are being persecuted....we should be so blessed...having some secular functionary say "no" to you is not 'persecution'...having your child torn limb from limb in front of you , because you own a Bible and lead a cell church, THATS persecution.
lets get real here, please dont insult Jesus and Him Crucified, by misappropriating the onus of His Blood.
| 2011/12/27 13:36|
Edmonton Alberta Cda.
| Re: |
Act 5:40 And to him they agreed: and when they had called the apostles, and beaten them, they commanded that they should not speak in the name of Jesus, and let them go.
Act 5:41 And they departed from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for his name.
Act 5:42 And daily in the temple, and in every house, they ceased not to teach and preach Jesus Christ.
I believe there might be a lesson here. It would be a good idea for those of us here who are Christians, and not athiests, mormons,jahova witnesses, and any other person here that intends to cause confusion, that you take a couple of hours and read the book of Acts again. Then you can give a proper response to those who would attempt to distort the truth.
It would be a good idea if the above mentioned people prayerfuly read the book of Acts to. It really can transform your life. Blessings Greg
ps. It may be a real shock to some of you, but not all who use this forum are Christians.
Mat 13:27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
Mat 13:28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
Mat 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
| 2011/12/27 13:48||Profile|
(hey brother, what i write, i write in love and with a small voice, ready?)
you wrote, dear brother:
We are for the most part law abiding citizens. But what are you going to do when the Bible is banned, preaching the gospel is illegal, and coming together to worship Christ is against the law. Can't happen you say.
myself?...i NEVER said it cant 'happen here', in fact as Led, i FULLY expect private Bible ownership to made ILLEGAL, which is why i been telling anyone who will LISTEN, buy sturdy hard cover Bibles by the case NOW, and stash them...i have...and if that seems like a boast, its a boast in the Lord, coz God the Holy Ghost done told me to do it.
furthermore, many many brothers and sisters in Jesus i met have been rather sheltered...forgive for using this word, but sometimes ya'll seem kinda 'square'...how many of you have operated in the black market? how many of you ever operated on the other side of the law? how many of you can look into a policeman's face and lie, without batting an eye?
"oh my brother, but that's lying, that ungodly behavior".
really?...what kind of scheming and scamming did those brothers in Damascus have to go thru to get Paul lowered in that basket, and out of harm's way?...or what about when his kinfolk heard that the zealots were laying up in an ambush for him, and got that intelligence info to use the hated romans to protect Paul?
you're going to have to learn how to operate in a grey area, where most of todays clean and washed pew sitters cant even wrap their minds around, or you are either going to die, needlessly, or get so frightened, that you'll just say "yes emperor" and do as you are told.
i'm not talking about 'rebellion' in the sense of violence, division, screaming, protesting, sedition.....i'm speaking of learning how to zig, when the sons of darkness expect you to zag...the Early Church knew how to operate like this; when the zealots, those violent rebels started to act up, most every follower of Jesus was OUT of Jerusalem, that was not a 'party' God told told them to attend, coz the end of that was the destruction of Jerusalem by the dread romans.
24 hard cover Bibles run about 140 dollars paper money, i hope you hear me.
Romans 13 has probably been one of the most mis-interpeted, mis-used portions of the New Covenant Writings, because this brother obeys the laws of the Land, quiet, peacable and low key, but i'm ready to starting zigging....and lower some baskets.
| 2011/12/27 14:05|
| Smokey |
ps. It may be a real shock to some of you, but not all who use this forum are Christians.
you're right. i'm not, i'm a Jew who follows Jesus.
care to add anything else?
| 2011/12/27 14:11|