Poonen writes:

" We cannot blame Job for complaining. He didn’t have a Bible, the indwelling Holy Spirit, or a brother to encourage him. But Paul never complained; and neither need we."


Again, this is a confusing thought that is not based on the Scriptures. Poonen uses the word "complaining" to describe Job's interaction with God. But the Scriptures say this...


Job 31:35 Oh, that I had one to hear me! Here is my mark. [Oh, that] the Almighty would answer me, [That] my Prosecutor had written a book!


Poonen himself assigns the meaning to the Scripture above as representative of Job crying out to God.

"He cries out to God to answer him (v.35)."


Yet Poonen says that we should not cry out as Job. This is just the opposite of what Scripture declares.


Here is a riddle... What differentiates a humble man from a proud man? You will find the answer in the Scriptures...

_________________
Jeff Marshalek

Job 36:13 "But the hypocrites in heart store up wrath; They do not cry for help when He binds them.

_________________
Jeff Marshalek

Brother Paul wrote:


"Dear brother, I have no interest in debating with you. These are just my thoughts. Have a great day!"


I share for this precept is at work in my life....


Pro 27:17 [As] iron sharpens iron, So a man sharpens the countenance of his friend.


God Bless
Jeff

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Jeff Marshalek

Paul wrote:

" But if you look at each OT character carefully, you'll find highs and lows, complaining and victory, exuberance and depression, faith and doubting. From Abraham all the way to the prophets, including John the Baptist who suddenly had doubts about Christ while in prison."

and...


"New Covenant believers were a new breed! They were filled with everlasting joy and victory, with stalwart surety and faith, going from triumph to triumph despite the rising persecution from all sides"



How many sisters and brother in Christ do you know who resemble your first thought and how many sisters and brothers fit your description in the second thought?


I once was a romantic christian, but then I did not know the Scriptures as well as I do now...

Let's us get real with one another Paul

In Love
Jeff

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Jeff Marshalek

JOB

Despite great loss including his health, Job did not sin and continued to praise God. He accepted all things as from the hand of God though it was clearly shown that God did not send the evil. He permitted it and it was Satan who was the instigator. He had learned the secret of overcoming, that is to say, in thanking God for all things knowing that He could have stepped in and prevented evil but He often does not and Job had learned well that the most important thing is the state and health of our spirit, not material ease or the love and support of family and friends and that it is through suffering that we grow into spiritual maturity, unto the full stature of a man in Christ who also learned and grew through suffering proving God`s word that all things work to the good of those who are one with Him.

Reading through Job, certain verses stand out like beacons, acting as interpretive keys. The first is in the description of Job as a holy man. The book is not primarily about suffering though it does answer the question of it in those who are on the holy path like Job. It is about holiness or sanctification and those who are on the same journey will understand.

Chapter three opens up the reason why we suddenly find Job in utter misery and despair whereas previous to this he had peace and joy. He speaks of darkness and the shadow of death, the blackness of the day and the solitary night (3:6) where `no joyful voice come therein` (3:7) Job is describing the experience of being deserted by God where the light he had previously walked in, had been taken away and now he was in darkness, and he found himself in utter confusion (10:15).

The thing he had dreaded had come upon him, where he no longer dwelt in the rest that remains for the people of God nor in the safety of being sheltered under the wing of God. Job could cope with anything that life threw at him, even losing all he had so long as he was dwelling close to his Saviour and upheld by the arms of God and for us we too know the peace that passeth understanding while walking in His presence, on the mountain top, but God had consented to his sifting by Satan and those today who have walked in holiness, will one day find themselves plunged into the wilderness and experience that which their Master had been required to go through too.

Job finds himself in the wilderness and is tempted by three voices from what are supposed to be his friends. It may be that the three voices are going on inside of Job`s head, the voices of human reasoning standing against the voice of Job`s former spiritual insights when he was walking in the light and holy and therefore having the discernment to see things from God`s point of view through having the mind of Christ. Although the light has gone, he retains the knowledge and argues back from it, reasoning against his opponents accusations that:

a) even though he admits that he has lost his assurance that he is holy, he once was confirming that man can live without sinning

b) it was not sin which brought about his downfall therefore he is not being punished by God. God later confirms that Job was correct and that the voices were wrong.

It is a point of torture for those who are on the same path and who fall into the dark night, to seek the sin which has caused their fall from grace.

Job reproves the voices and shows they are not coming from divine wisdom. He shows that the attitude of Eliphaz is wrong and not coming from the Holy Spirit and of a heart of love when he says in response (6:14) `To him that is afflicted, pity should be shown from his friends, but he forsaketh the fear of the Lord`. Eliphaz is not walking in the Spirit.

`Do you imagine to reprove words and the speeches of one who is desperate which are as wind?` (6:26) How true it is that those who are in trauma and despair find little help and comfort, even in the place where help should be found – in the church especially those who are passing through the dark night of the soul, and find like Jesus `I looked for comforters but there were none`.

May we be mindful not to increase the sufferings of such as these by correcting their confused thoughts with `sound doctrine`, in the meantime without pity or love. Instead how often do we overwhelm the fatherless, digging them a pit (6:27) instead of encouraging them that the Lord always returns to those whom He has seemingly deserted.

Job asks `How long wilt thou not depart from me nor let me alone till I swallow down my spittle?` (7:19) He begins to think that the cause is that he has sinned for this is the explanation of the voices but he does not understand because he desires to be restored and repents but with no result. `And why dost Thou not pardon my transgressions and take away mine iniquity?` (7:21) (If this is the reason for the desertion)

Job wishes to be restored but it does not happen so the voices put the blame on him. O how often is this repeated in the churches? Then Bildad speaks `If though wouldest seek unto God betimes, and make thy supplication to the Almighty, IF though wert pure and upright surely now we would awake for thee (8:5). The voices have no understanding of the higher works of God which are above human reasoning which His holy ones must go through. Perhaps this is the voice of temptation seeking to destroy Job`s faith. Job pleads with God `Do not condemn me show me therefore Thou contendeth with me (10:2) The way to the Holy of Holies is a strange and narrow path.

Job shows his superior spiritual standing by his longing to be restored to God and his agony when not in the conscious presence of the Lord, not content to be standing in position only, living in the dead letter of the word and not with the Living Word as his guide. `O that I knew where I might find Him that I might come even to His seat` (Song of Songs 23:3) and echo the plea of the Shulamite in Song of Solomon (SS 3:11) by night on my bed I sought Him whom my soul loveth, I sought Him but I found Him not, the seeking bride cried out, `I opened to my beloved but my beloved had withdrawn Himself and was gone.

My soul faileth when He spoke, I sought Him but I could not find Him, I called Him but He gave no answer` (SS 5:6) and like Job and His comforters. `The watchmen that went about the city found me; they smote me; they wounded me; they the keepers of the wall took away my veil from me (SS 5:7).

Job prophesised his own restoration (23:10) `But He knoweth the way that I take, when He hath tried me I shall come forth as gold, as the Shulamite emerges (SS 7:5) `Who is this that cometh up from the wilderness leaning upon her beloved. Jealousy is cruel as the grave, the coals the re are coals of fire which hath a most vehement flame`.

There is no need to fear, however, the purification and cleansing of the Lord as the famous hymn neatly puts it in How Firm a Foundation :

When through fiery trials thy pathway shall lie
His grace all sufficient shall be thy supply
The flame shall not hurt thee His only design
Thy dross to consume and thy gold to refine.

Job had questioned God and had not waited patiently for Him to return. He was not self righteous, his claim for holiness and his dispute with his friends that sin had not brought about the separation from God was correct. He had spoken the truth even though now he had fallen. `I have sinned , what shall I do unto Thee O Thou preserver of men? Why hast Thou set me as a mark against Thee so that I am a burden to myself? And why dost Thou not pardon my transgressions and take away my iniquity? For now shall I sleep in the dust, and Thou shall seek me in the morning but I shall not be` (7:20-21).

In his speech, Job asks God three questions and shows the extent of the sinfulness he had fallen into, by calling the Almighty, the creator of the universe into question and then issuing a threat like a peeved lover - `I will no longer be around when you decide to end this desertion of yours and bother to come looking for me. Why do you not end this and return me to my previous position by taking away my iniquity so that I can be holy again and have the respect I formerly commanded when men would listen to me and not even have a reply, whereas now I am burdened by these `comforters` who call me a liar and a hypocrite.`


Job had much to learn about being a submissive slave to his Master, allowing Him to grace him with His presence or depart at will which means walking by faith alone. He must learn that all we possess belongs to God and not to ourselves. Although Job acknowledged this when his family and possessions were taken away from him, the spiritual benefits he had received, such as his high standing amongst men and having the presence of God with him, were claimed by Job as his own. He was not happy when they were taken away from him, but God brought Job to his knees when the tables were turned and God returned the questions, questions which reduced Job to the size ofa tiny speck in relation to creation. Job abhored himself when he saw himself as the light clearly showed him in relation to Almighty God which the repentance that restored him back into fellowship with the Saviour.

krautfrau wrote:

"In his speech, Job asks God three questions and shows the extent of the sinfulness he had fallen into, by calling the Almighty, the creator of the universe into question and then issuing a threat like a peeved lover - `I will no longer be around when you decide to end this desertion of yours and bother to come looking for me. Why do you not end this and return me to my previous position by taking away my iniquity so that I can be holy again and have the respect I formerly commanded when men would listen to me and not even have a reply, whereas now I am burdened by these `comforters` who call me a liar and a hypocrite.`"


But also writes this....


"Job had questioned God and had not waited patiently for Him to return. He was not self righteous,"


We have this testimony in Scripture...


Job 32:2 Then the wrath of Elihu, the son of Barachel the Buzite, of the family of Ram, was aroused against Job; his wrath was aroused because he justified himself rather than God.


When one tries to justify himself before God, from what standard does one's view point find it's foundation?

_________________
Jeff Marshalek

`When one tries to justify himself before God, from what standard does one's view point find it's foundation?`

rookie, I agree that Job at this point was fallen. What I meant that he was not self righteous before that in thinking he was perfect. He was perfect.

Krautfrau wrote:

"rookie, I agree that Job at this point was fallen. What I meant that he was not self righteous before that in thinking he was perfect. He was perfect."

I agree with one distinction...


Lev 4:27 'If anyone of the common people sins unintentionally by doing [something against] any of the commandments of the LORD [in anything] which ought not to be done, and is guilty,

Lev 4:28 'or if his sin which he has committed comes to his knowledge, then he shall bring as his offering a kid of the goats, a female without blemish, for his sin which he has committed.


God's purpose in this trial was to teach Job something he did not know before the trial.

Pro 17:3 The refining pot [is] for silver and the furnace for gold, But the LORD tests the hearts.


As you have said, Job followed the Holy Spirit, and in faith, grew in all Spiritual understanding. Many preachers today speak of the teaching of Jesus on adultery and say that Jesus taught something new. Yet we find that Job also understood and testified in like manner.

Like Job, we today can have the Holy Spirit teach us many things. But like Job, God will test us, to show us what we do not yet understand about our own walk with Him. Unintentional sin is the sin we have not yet recognized about ourselves. God does not hold that against us. It is God's grace that must first teach us what we do not understand. Like Job, only then are we held accountable to what God has revealed to us. And then as in Leviticus 4:28, once we know then we are called to repent. And this Job did.

may God continue to teach us sister about His ways...
Jeff

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Jeff Marshalek

Poonen's last sentence...

" But Paul never complained; and neither need we."


As I have stated before, according to Scripture, Paul did cry out three times before God revealed to him the purpose of his affliction.


We also covered this spiritual precept...




Job 36:8 And if [they are] bound in fetters, Held in the cords of affliction,

Job 36:9 Then He tells them their work and their transgressions--That they have acted defiantly.

Job 36:10 He also opens their ear to instruction, And commands that they turn from iniquity.
.....

Job 36:12 But if they do not obey, They shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge. [fn]

Job 36:13 "But the hypocrites in heart store up wrath; They do not cry for help when He binds them.


After God has through the Holy Spirit, revealed instruction to the one He binds, if then one does not obey, this one shall die without knowledge.


This precept of knowledge is key to this topic. We know that both men, Job and Paul were without knowledge as to the reason God binded each one. Only after both men cried out to God repeatedly did He reveal knowledge to each man. We know that these testimonies correspond to the Scriptures which teach about God's chastening...

Hbr 12:11 Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.


God's affliction is not joyful but painful in the present, but afterwards it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it. So we see that during the time of affliction, God does not expect his sons to enjoy the present work. But it is afterwards, once knowledge is imparted to the son, that this work of God brings understanding to the son that has endured the painful experience.

Here is a riddle...how is the word, "trained" connected to "knowledge"?

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Jeff Marshalek