Poster | Thread | dietolive Member
Joined: 2007/6/29 Posts: 342
| Re: roadsign | | Dear Sister,
A pleasure to "meet" you Ma'am. :O)
Quote: "Furthermore... It would seem to me that to suggest a book in Scripture is written by a hardened hell-bound sinner would be making a fool out of the Holy Spirit, as well as those who formed the canon!!"
How does one prove that Ecclesiastes was written by King Solomon? It may very well have been, but if this can't be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt, than what of the arguments you have put forth?
It may be that Solomon repented before death, (as Ezekiel 18 shows us is necessary with God), but if we can't even prove that Ecclesiastes was written by Solomon, than we cannot use this book to "prove" that he did repent, can we? Do you see what I mean dear Sister?
I wish you well in the Lord. Doug |
| 2011/12/9 12:02 | Profile | hulsey Moderator
Joined: 2006/7/5 Posts: 653 Missouri
| Re: | | It's important to keep in mind that Godly men throughout history are split on this. Brother Poonen does not stand alone on this interpretation.
Also consider that God spoke one of the greatest prophecies about the Messiah through the mouth of the pagan prophet Balaam.
Blessings, Jeremy _________________ Jeremy Hulsey
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| 2011/12/9 12:16 | Profile | roadsign Member
Joined: 2005/5/2 Posts: 3777
| Re: | | Quote:
Is what you wrote all your own words?
Yes, sister.
Quote:
but if we can't even prove that Ecclesiastes was written by Solomon, than we cannot use this book to "prove" that he did repent, can we?
Yes Doug, I realize that authorship is not conclusive according to biblical criticism. Yet no reasonable alternative exists - yet. I think the following footnote from the NET Bible site, speaks for the current situation regarding authorship: ------ Apart from David, only Solomon was king over Israel in Jerusalem unless the term Israel (yisrael) in 1:12 is used for Judah or the postexilic community. Solomon would fit the description of the author of this book, who is characterized by great wisdom (1:13, 16), great wealth (2:8), numerous servants (2:7), great projects (2:4-6), and the collection, editing and writings of many proverbs (12:9-10). All of this generally suggests Solomonic authorship. However, many scholars deny Solomonic authorship on the basis of linguistic and historical arguments. ------
Now, I realize that my following point holds absolutely no water in scholarship, but here it is: Many years ago after studying the account of Solomon, I became deeply burdened about the outcome of his life and so I simply asked God to show me. I am still convinced that the Spirit brought Ecclesiastes into my mind, and put the whole idea of him being a returned prodigal. I doubt that back then I would have even entertained the possibility, because thats just not what anyone talked about or where my mind was at. Still to this day after much more bible studying, nothing has given me reason for a need to question the authorship. The skeptics just don't have a strong case.
By accepting Solomnic authorship, we lose nothing. We actually strengthen the unity of scripture on many points including the two testaments. Conversely, by remaining non-committal the loss is substantial, I fear. Ecclesiastes gets marginalized in the church, and disconnected from Solomon and his life.... and next thing you know Solomon is in hell! Its a slippery path and not worth the risk IMHO.
Wouldnt you say?
Diane
_________________ Diane
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| 2011/12/9 13:29 | Profile | dietolive Member
Joined: 2007/6/29 Posts: 342
| Re: | | Dear Sister Diane,
You have well-written, and I am inclined to agree with your supposition. However, please consider my thoughts, if you will.
Quote: I realize that authorship is not conclusive according to biblical criticism.
Not according to biblical criticism per se, but rather according to the writer of Ecclesiastes. The writer does not name himself. Therefore, we cannot absolutely say it was Solomon.
For instance, I believe Hebrews was written by Paul, but beyond a male pronoun used in one place, we cannot know for certain who wrote it.
Quote: By accepting Solomnic authorship, we lose nothing.
I accept Solomnic authorship, probably, but since I cannot be certain, I am barred from using this probably fact to prove another absolute fact. I couldnt do so logically. Do you see what I am saying Maam?
Quote: We actually strengthen the unity of scripture on many points including the two testaments. Conversely, by remaining non-committal the loss is substantial, I fear. Ecclesiastes gets marginalized, disconnected from Solomon and his life.... and next thing you know Solomon is in hell! Its a slippery path and not worth the risk IMHO.
I am not sure what you mean here. Are you looking for a particular outcome, (isogesis?) Or are you willing to accept the Scriptures at face value, (exegesis?)
I myself have to accept the Scriptures where it shows that Solomon backslid, and though I think he repented, I cannot prove this from Scripture. Whatever happened to him however, his amazing rise and devastating fall is a powerful reminder for us all to take God and His Word very seriously. In other words, God is glorified if we look at it either way.
I recall what the apostle Paul said when he warned the Church not to follow those who sinned in the Old Testament:
Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted....
Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them...
Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed...
Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted...
Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured...
Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition[warning], upon whom the ends of the world are come. I Corinthians 10:6-11
Just my thought regarding this. I am not saying it must be one way or the other.
Be well ma'am, Doug |
| 2011/12/9 14:04 | Profile | Christinyou Member
Joined: 2005/11/2 Posts: 3710 Ca.
| Re: | | Old-joe
Please, if you have inspiration on this from Heb 11:39, in how these Old Testament saints?, I would appreciate your view, "How are they made perfect" in Christ:'?
Lot-saved Samson-saved Solomon-saved Jonathan-saved Uzziah-saved Jacob-saved Barak-saved Ruth-saved
How were these made perfect? Not just, "by faith", which I understand, but how and when Christ was made perfect in them.
In Christ: Phillip _________________ Phillip
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| 2011/12/9 15:26 | Profile | roadsign Member
Joined: 2005/5/2 Posts: 3777
| Re: | | Hello Doug. I value your gracious reply and I will do my best in response.
Quote:
I am barred from using this probably fact to prove another absolute fact. I couldnt do so logically. Do you see what I am saying Maam?
Oh yes brother. In other words, we defend our absolutes from our preferred probabilities. This sounds like the backdrop for many disputes regarding scripture even among the experts. Who am I to provide any logical conclusion in this particular matter? I do note that Mathew and Mark offer no author name; yet we accept their authorship based on criteria from the early church. Certainly, here we are comfortable with accepting a probability as fact (although this is even being questioned).
Quote:
The writer does not name himself. Therefore, we cannot absolutely say it was Solomon.
Yet, in Ecclesiastes there seems to be a substantial quantity of absolutes regarding the author - in comparison with Hebrews which offers almost none. Regarding the use of a name as conclusive evidence - even here scholars are questioning Ephesian authorship based on assorted criteria, in spite of Pauls name throughout. I have the same problem here as with Ecclesiastes because, here again, when the author gets severed off, the teachings lose potential weight. (For me it makes a difference when a teaching is backed by a real persons life story someone you can learn more about in other parts of scripture as Solomon and Paul)
A side note: Poonen (and others) argue that the absence of recorded repentance proves Solomon guilty. By the same token there is an intriguing absence of judgment against Solomon in the New Testament. The NT uses other examples: Sodom, the wandering Israelites (They did not enter Gods rest). Here Solomon should have been the ideal model!
Quote:
In other words, God is glorified if we look at it either way.
I may very well arrive at this conclusion some day. For now Im not there. Maybe theres bit of Calvinism in me: God is able to save his own no matter how deeply they fall and Solomon is prime an example of the power of Gods mercy. Certainly Solomon reveals plenty of evidence of belonging to God and being endowed with the Spirit. (Thats surely proof for a Calvinist!)
True, Solomons failings alone, can serve as a caution, along with the scriptures you posted. Yet Ecclesiastes gets at the root of those sins: the search for meaning apart from God. Today our society is reeling because of this same insatiable search for meaning and significance. This is driving so many of our youth into destructive life habits in spite of the insurmountable evidence of the tragic outcomes. In view of this crisis among our youth today, I find myself extremely protective of this potential Biblical application: Solomon and his hope offered for youth. Its not just a warning to stop doing bad, but the remedy for that driving thirst: God himself.
The thin thread of probability, for me is outbalanced by a multi-stringed cord of absolutes drawn together from a very wide radius.
Diane
_________________ Diane
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| 2011/12/9 17:51 | Profile | Christinyou Member
Joined: 2005/11/2 Posts: 3710 Ca.
| Re: | | The Preacher says he was the son of David, King over Israel, the wisest man in all Jerusalem, the richest, and wrote some 3000 proverbs. Checking Proverbs Soloman is the primary writer with others sprinkled in.
That is good enough for me, as with Paul in Hebrews, who had the highest education in all the land and always in his comission to preach what Christ Himself revealed to him of all his epistles, preaching Christ and Him Crucified and his position 146 times, that position being in Christ, and Christ in him.
To me truth; revealed by the Holy Spirit and conformation in my mind. Not from man.
In Christ: Phillip _________________ Phillip
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| 2011/12/9 18:11 | Profile |
| Re: | | Quote:
Please, if you have inspiration on this from Heb 11:39, in how these Old Testament saints?, I would appreciate your view, "How are they made perfect" in Christ:'?
Have you received the promise of Christ's second coming? Not yet, but even though we haven't actually received the promise of the second coming it doesn't keep us from trusting in the fact that it is coming does it? The OT saints all looked FORWARD to the coming Messiah, whereas we look backward at it. Neither of us have actually seen the day, but both of us actually look to the same work accomplished on the cross as our justification before God. They were made perfect through the righteousness of faith (Rom 4) the same way the Christian is today.
The righteousness ZP and others are preaching is NOT the righteousness of faith, but their own righteousness of Rom 10:3-4, which never makes one perfect before God.
OJ
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| 2011/12/9 23:49 | | savannah Member
Joined: 2008/10/30 Posts: 2265
| Re: basic math | | OJ,
You said,
1) "Poonen is a false teacher who bases his salvation on his 'fruit' rather than on the promise of God."
And you also said,
+1) "The righteousness ZP and others are preaching is NOT the righteousness of faith, but their own righteousness of Rom 10:3-4, which never makes one perfect before God."
To sum it up you said,
=2) "I will willingly go where Solomon is, but I want no part of where Poonen is going.
I know 1+1=2
Tell me,is my math wrong when I add up your quotes 1+1 to = Zac Poonen is going to hell!
Because I know that "false teacher[s]" as you call ZP, and those who are preaching a righteousness that is "NOT the righteousness of faith" as you accuse ZP of, are hell-bound!
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| 2011/12/10 0:31 | Profile | savannah Member
Joined: 2008/10/30 Posts: 2265
| Re: | | Post Removed by poster
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| 2011/12/10 0:58 | Profile |
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