I have had a question put to me that I cannot fully explain, and ask your help in forming an answer.

Luke 14:27
27. And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

How is one to know what cross we bear, other than our carnal selves, which we drag around with us daily, knowing the sin that is in our old man. How do we shoulder this burden best? How do we best learn to come after Yeshua?

Q

Hello, others will come and put their ideas after mine but to me, the cross referred to here is the cross of following Christ ... and not necessarily the cross of carrying our own carnality. Although that is a burden until we lose the particular sin that is bringing us down.

The cross of following Christ is a harder cross to carry to those who are truly following Him. Because the cross of Christ is of obedience leading to the death of our old self and of our transformed hearts.

When we see that the purpose for us in our lives as believers is to be conformed to the image of Christ. We will then see why the voice of God can often tend to be a voice requesting our obedience over sin.

This daily walk of obedience will ultimately lead us to the place where Christ wants us to be, with the attitude of our hearts towards others changed. And our love for God greater.

The secret is in obeying the quiet voice of God in our hearts when no-one except you and God are aware of it. That obedience can be very hard at times.

The verse you quoted also says that 'we cannot be his disciples unless we carry our cross and follow Him.
A disciple is a follower and one who is taught by Christ alone, privately.

We are taught the lessons of discipleship through obeying the voice of Christ to our hearts.

We have a closer walk with God through obedience than that of faith alone.

David.

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David Keel

1 John 2:6  He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

Ephesians 2:10  For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

If we consider the final essence of Paul's ministry, Christ formed in us, we should also ask what the purpose of that formation of new sons and daughthers is. Obviously we cannot go ahead of Christ because "The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord." Matt 10:24 . So we look at his life and come back to 'walk, as he walked'.

It is a walk of the cross, not self-gratification. Rather self denial, our personal benefit is just an accompanying side factor. We are his workmanship, not our own.

Which is still something most are not practising yet, otherwise we would heal the sick and raise the dead.

So i found the synonymity in Paul's and Jesus' words and say "If we love him, walk in the Spirit".

'Walking' as used by Paul and John is not an agreement to doctrine, but an implementation by his Spirit that transforms our daily life.

While we don't walk independantly, the bride of Christ walks in reverence to her bridegroom, similar to Paul admonishes in Ephesians "the wife see that she reverence her husband."

Minute by minute we set aside that which we would like to do in deference for that which He would have us to do.

Thank you, all three.

The point about discipleship not being permitted is what led to this question.

I myself am growing more aware...almost fearful that I am one of those that do not do as Yeshua has said I am to be doing, so it is good to be reminded that that Yeshua is the one that does the finishing work, and the Ruach haKodesh.

One feels so helpless to do the necessary tasks, having neither the energy nor the strength in one's own self to do what haMashiach does in us. It is good to be reminded that the helplessness of one's ability, in the natural, is what is used of Adonai.

It is difficult in this busy, self-oriented life to remember that we are just a lump of clay, and not the Potter.


Q

Unsure what you mean with "discipleship not being permitted", do you mean the narrow way is not generally accepted? Possibly because of the idea that "discipleship is optional" for believers.

What cannot be true since Jesus said: "If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me" Matt16:24

Self-denial is more than not to walk in the desires of the flesh and sin, although i think it's an essential step to experience the actual truth that we're not in bondage to sin anymore. Believing that is wonderful, experiencing it is yet another revelation of the same truth.

However self denial means also to deny our naturally "good side" and all the great things we can do or be, without Him. Some people are dominated and taken captive by their great abilities and eloquence. This also has to be brought to the cross and die, before it can be used by God. Everything in the world is still the world, no matter how refined it is and what improved almost god-like appearance it has. Including wisdom, or understanding of truth, what good is it if it leads to rebellion and separation from God.

Obedience is a choice of the heart. To me a disciple is a disciplined one that obeys what God says, not his own understanding of what God has meant. There is a fine line and a final authority, one is self and leads back to self, the other is God.

I was getting ready to post a devotional by T. Austin Sparks which deals with "taking up the cross" when I came upon this thread. I was blessed by the various responses to the initial post, and believe that many of them come not from some doctrine or teaching but from actual experience. I thought that it would be appropriate to share the devotional by T. Austin Sparks on this subject, and may the Holy Spirit work in our lives to make the cross personal and not mere theory.

Mike

November 28
"Open Windows" by T. Austin Sparks

If anyone wants to follow in My footsteps, he must give up all right to himself, carry his cross every day and keep close behind Me. (Luke 9:23 Phillips)

The Cross is applied according to every man's make-up. What would be the Cross to me would never be the Cross to you, and the Cross may mean something different for every one of us. But it is universal. That is the point — central and universal. It touches us all perhaps in a different way, and it raises questions and issues for each one of us peculiarly. That is our challenge of the Cross, and then it is a matter of whether we, in what we are, will come and allow the Cross to deal with us. It is no use our saying, "What shall this man do?" the Lord will at once answer, "What is that to thee? Follow thou Me." There is a personal, individual, shall I say, private application of the Cross to every one of us, and our spiritual growth depends entirely upon the Cross doing its work in us, and our response to it personally.

So, you see, it is very necessary that we should recognize that this cannot be taken as a kind of a general thing. It has to become peculiar to each one of us. Oh, beloved, do believe that this is not just teaching, or doctrine. It is of very great importance. But I would beg you not to accept it merely because I am saying it and emphasizing it, nor even because I tell you that so far as some of us are concerned, it is a proved thing. I would ask you for one thing only, namely, not to close your heart to it, not to say, "That is a teaching!" but just to ask the Lord, "Is this right?" taking an attitude simply and honestly before the Lord, even should you feel it is not true, and so leaving room for the possibility that the prejudice may, after all, spring from yourself, from something in your constitution or in your upbringing. Will you go to the Lord with this and say, "Lord I do not see, it is difficult for me t o believe it; but, if it is true, then, Lord, I am open to the truth, and I want You to take me definitely in hand on the ground of the truth." There is not one of us, I am sure, who wants to stand in the presence of the Lord later on, and for the Lord to say, "My child, I would have led you into something very much fuller if only you had given Me the chance." Will you take a very honest and open-hearted attitude toward the Lord in the matter?

By T. Austin-Sparks from: The Lamb in the Midst of the Throne - Chapter 7

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Mike

Questor: Paul echos what Jesus is saying in Luke 14:27 in Romans 6, and there are other places as well. However I think Romans 6 is probably the most clear and straightforward.

To be baptized into Christ, born again, is to be baptized into His death. Jesus, speaking of His own death and resurrection said that except a kernel of wheat fall to the ground and die it cannot bring forth fruit. We are do reckon ourselves dead with Christ to sin and now alive unto God just as Christ died and rose again. Rebirth (regeneration) involves a death to the old man. So it is not just a daily dying to my own desires, although that is definitely part of it. It is not just a dying to my own carnality, although that is part of it. It is a literal dying with Christ and being resurrected to new life. I like the term I heard one teacher use...an exchanged life. Old for new.

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Travis

Thank you Mike (AbideinHim) for sharing with us the T.Austin Sparks reading.

The Lord certainly points to things in us as individuals which need to be changed. When God began to lead me into repentance it was a frightening thing because I had been in the Faith movement and my eyes were completely closed to the possibilities of true repentance on a personal level. I didn't understand why God would lead me so hard in what I believed at the time to be the wrong direction. But one which now brings closeness with God and a changed heart toward others.
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Matthew 16v24 Then Jesus said to His disciples, "If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me.

V 25 ... For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.

Questor this is a similar set of verses to Luke 14v27 .

We cannot follow Christ (be a disciple of His) unless
we deny ourselves (give up our passions and lusts and don't give them an opportunity). The battle takes place in the mind.


David

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David Keel

hi there. thanks for posting this topic.

I think we should always be mindful of the fact that Yeshua is alive and longing to make disciples of us today.

the comments posted are helpful. but in the end, only Yeshua will adequately answer these questions for you.

seek Him first and He'll teach you the answers you're looking for. He's the Master, and only He can cause you understand through experience.

be blessed!