Hi Brother,

You said:
"Even the Apostle Paul wrote clearly about his own struggle with his flesh (sin)... and surely no one thinks that at those times Paul was going to hell. Paul certainly did not believe that."

I once believed as you have here written, but upon further investigation, I have been forced to conclude that Paul wasn't talking about himself in Romans 7, and we have no record of anyone anywhere even hinting that he was, until the very end of the fourth century.

You said:
"We are not saved by our works... so how can works keep us saved? If it can then we have something to boast about."

It is not by good works that we are saved, but by grace through "faith" that we are saved dear Brother. However, when one is rebelling against the Saviour, by definition, he does not have "faith."

It is God's very grace itself that works to call the rebel back to Himself, and back to "the faith that saves."

Be well,
Doug

Dear HezWelling, you said you're an "Israelite in the flesh"
and you read the Torah, should I care?

Secondly, you asked me a question and then threatened me to answer. Are you serious?

You said and I quote: (better be straight with your answers right now, otherwise one of us WILL BE exiting this forum, i can assure of that.)

I forgive you.

Doug... never heard before that people did not consider that Paul was talking about himself when Paul said in Romans 7:14-25:

“For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.”

How can that not be Paul talking about his struggle, and a struggle common to all believers?

I love ya, brother... be we must disagree if you are putting forward the idea that everytime we sin we lose our salvation. Certainly thats not what you believe, is it?

If it is then we lose our salvation multiple times a day, do we not?

I'm hoping I've misunderstood you.

Krispy

Sometimes it takes time for understanding. I'm 72 and I've only seen things more clearly in these last 5 years. One can be locked onto a scripture or a belief and you then are in a box, afraid to let go. Give your self time on the floor at your master's feet. Ask Him for the answers. Don't tell him what you know. I always pray "I only want the truth, nothing else. Usually the answer comes at night when I awake around 2-3 AM.

When reading the minor prophets you find a mix of lessons to those in Israel, or about to go in captivity and then the prophet gives hope for a better day. You can find the heart of God in Hosea. Almost hear him cry.

Since the Jews have to wait on Salvation as we see in Acts, and seeing that the gentiles are grafted in to the natural, we might see two different groups coming together at the end. This is seen in Rev 14. In verse 12 we see two groups, those who keep the commandments and those who have the faith of Christ. This is what it appears to be.

I have read the prophecies of the feasts in the OT being observed in the millenium. I'm pretty sure they won't be observed as before. The Bible is not clear on what everything will be like after Christ returns with regard to
festivals, cities, etc.

Strive for the bigger picture. God is in the ministry of reconciliation. He wants man back. The Garden of Eden was like the Kingdom of God when Adam was there. God is repairing the breach. We were made for his pleasure and not for our own. We have all been our own god, doing our own thing. This is what the cross does; it buys you back. He paid for your sins. Christ is serious about wanting you. Catch that vision rather than days, moons, laws. Catch what he is doing in the overall scheme of things. We're not a god. That's our big problem. He took Adam and placed Adam. That is what Christ is doing.

_________________
James R Barnes

the second time i asked two very simple questions, you still not will not answer, which indicates a lack of transparency.

you burst onto a discussion forum, with agenda, and then dont even have either the courage or the grace to be transparent,

in your opague setting, somehow your urge to forgive me, does not ring true, neither does your theo-rhetoric.

i am confident you will impale yourself on your own petard, its just a matter of time, quickly now, your master is impatient, his time is short, and he has much havoc to wreak.

Good Morning Brother,

You said:
"Doug... never heard before that people did not consider that Paul was talking about himself when Paul said in Romans 7..."


I am not surprised you've never even heard this before, but more on Romans 7 later, if God permits...


You said:
"...the idea that everytime we sin we lose our salvation. Certainly thats not what you believe, is it?

If it is then we lose our salvation multiple times a day, do we not?

I'm hoping I've misunderstood you."


Based upon what you have here written, I think you have not understood what I was trying to convey.

Did you read my earlier response to Butters? It explains what the "sin" is that we are talking about.

Be well,
Doug

I'll go back and read that again, and perhaps I'll understand you better.

As for not being surprised that I have not heard this apparent secret piece of theological history, I will refer to RC Sproul who has said that if you all of a sudden discover something brand new theologically that no one else has ever discovered before in 2,000 years of church history... that is called a "red flag".

I do not put stock in "hidden" revelations. And keep in mind that while there is much we can learn from the early church fathers, there was also much rank heresy in those days just as there is today. Look at all the warnings, and all the attention from Paul and others concerning false doctrines and teachers. They were addressing their contemporaries.

There were plenty of 1st and 2nd century Joel Osteens and Benny Hinns. Thats not a 21st century phenom.

Krispy

Dear Brother,

You wrote:
"And keep in mind that while there is much we can learn from the early church fathers, there was also much rank heresy in those days just as there is today... There were plenty of 1st and 2nd century Joel Osteens and Benny Hinns."

No no..., When I am talking about the early Church before Augustine, I am NOT talking about false teachers, but rather those leaders who knew the apostles or their disciples, or had easy access to those who did. I am referring to the first few generations of the early Church who, you know, God used to preserve and prepare the very canon of Scripture we believers still use today.

Finally, the view that Paul was rhetorically assuming the character of one "under the law" in Romans 7, and was not speaking of himself in his current state of being "under grace", is not a "hidden", "secret", or "new" view. This view is both ancient and well received by many in the Church for the past 2000 years.

Be well,
Doug

I love ya brother, but I do not accept this view of that passage. We'll have to disagree here.

Krispy