| Re: "go up to Jerusalem"|
Dear a servant,
Did you go up to Jerusalem this Year? Did you go the year before? Will you be going up next year? You believe the observance of a Sabbath day is literal, and quote a text from Zechariah as support. I simply ask you is going up to Jerusalem to be taken literally?
You have already answered by your actions. You either have your receipt from your last trip or not. You are either saving up for your next trip or you are not. Either way your actions clearly demonstrate whether you take "going up to Jerusalem" literally or not.
The question then becomes do you interpret the sabbath command in the same way as you do the Feast of Tabernacles? When you give a scripture as a proof text, it should not be one that demonstrates your own actions contradict your own position.
Alan and Dina Martin
| 2011/11/8 22:43||Profile|
| Re: |
" I simply ask you is going up to Jerusalem to be taken literally?"
This sounds like a question if I should interpret Scripture or just read it, and take a mental note regarding the near future. I prefer to just read it, because otherwise it's of absolute no use to me. Your reasoning is premature, you seem to think that whatever you may be suggesting and implying is of higher truth than that's what's written. On that basis you won't learn anything new, you just keep walking in your own mind of pretext.
No wonder people come up with stuff like "Jesus is the sabbath" or "I celebrate sabbath every day" - it's all non-biblical gibberish created out of a void of understanding that reminds me very much of the way the pretrib rapture deception is spread, i.e. "you should read this article..." -- because if you just read the Bible, it's simply not there. And the ones opposing themselves to the truth do not know that they are opposing themselves, thinking they are more spiritual by holding to a secret truth not literally displayed in the Bible. I've been there myself, so I know firsthand of its blinding power. But there's nothing Jesus cannot heal :-)
| 2011/11/9 19:25||Profile|
| Re: |
I was hoping it would not be difficult for you to see that you interpret the keeping of the Feast of Tabernacles much in the same way you have difficulty with others interpreting keeping the Sabbath.
I readily admit to interpreting both in a spiritual way. I believe this is at least consistent even if in error. I was simply hoping that you and others who protest this as unsound, would deal honestly with what appears to be your same practice when it comes to the keeping of the other feasts. I have not found anyone who keeps them literally according to the letter, actually in Jerusalem. I do not believe they are wrong for not doing so. I simply see them interpreting these feasts spiritually while protesting against those who choose to keep the Sabbath in the same way those who protest keep the rest of the required feasts.
If you fail to see the contradiction and inconsistency, I am hoping others will. That was my aim and I hope it will be accomplished. I would welcome your own explanation of how you have reconciled what seems to be an inconsistency at least to me. I believe it would serve others better than assuming others who differ from you are opposed to the truth when they are quite willing to discuss it.
Alan and Dina Martin
| 2011/11/9 22:31||Profile|
Central Alberta, Canada
| Re: Jesus is the Sabbath; He is the Rest !|
No wonder people come up with stuff like "Jesus is the sabbath" or "I celebrate sabbath every day" - it's all non-biblical gibberish
I am really in no mood to argue with 7th day adventist types. But just so you know...Jesus is THAT rest that we are to enter into.
Read Matthew 11:28 for evidence of this.
For more scripture on Jesus being that rest...the Sabbath rest, also read http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews+4&version=NKJV
Jesus took away all my sins, and they are no more.
It is an absolute certain truth that where there is no sin, the law of God CANNOT condemn.
We are the recipients of His mercy and grace, not of wages. The difference is being Born-Again and Phariseeism, which is the behavior of a sanctimonious and a self-righteous person. The difference between relationship and an absolute religious compulsion.
But just so you know, righteousness before God has already been purchased for us, it's not something you can earn for yourself.
Righteous living is something that we do because we are born of the Holy Spirit, and we submit ourselves in obedience to the Holy Spirit, who by the Grace of our Father in heaven, leads us into holy living, a work not of compulsion but of love that has been birthed in our hearts.
Paul said in Philippians 3:6-8: concerning zeal, persecuting the church; concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss for Christ. 8 Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ
The law of God requires works of righteousness, so why would Paul discard his righteousness in the law...(works in the Law) if he were so perfect in it?
Romans 3:21-22 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe.
How is the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus work to bring righteousness anyway?
The answer is very simple actually, it is because Jesus took away ALL my sins forever, and in the absence of sin the Law is fulfilled.
So, Here is a question:
If a person were completely sin free in their life (because Jesus washed away the sins), would the righteousness or holiness that the Law of God requires be fulfilled?
The answer is yes, because in the absence of sin the law is fulfilled!
So...if Jesus took away all of my sins after repentance and giving my life to Him, and I am blameless before God and sin free, do I fulfill the righteousness or holiness that the law of God requires?
The answer is yes; I fulfill the righteousness that the law of God requires because I have no sin in Jesus...because Jesus took and washed away my sins and nailed them to the cross! ...I am therefore sin free before God and fulfill ALL the righteousness that the law God requires. This is what is meant by the righteousness by faith and NOT by works!!!
So then the righteousness that the Law of God requires, is fulfilled in every single person who comes to Christ Jesus. This is what it means that Christ is the end of the law and that He fulfilled the law. This is the righteousness which is by faith, and not by the works of the Law of God.
Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.
31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.
How is the Law established?
The Law is established because there is no more sin to deal with, because Jesus took the sin away, and in the absence of sin the Law is Fulfilled, ...yes it is established!
This is the righteousness that is by faith, and NOT by the works of the Law.
Romans 5: 1-2 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
The very reason that Christ came into the world was so that He could free us from sin and the consequences of sin, and more then that, so that we could become a new creation in Christ Jesus. And in the absence of sin, which is through the cross of Christ, the Law is fulfilled.
Ephesians 2:8-9 (King James Version)
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.
What about Holiness and Holy Living....hasn't the Lord said you must be Holy for I am Holy?
Holiness becomes you...
God truly wants the repentance of man, for man to make a volitional choice for Him...to openly repent before Him and to follow Him, to Call upon Him...
He wants good works towards Him based on a loving personal relationship from the heart, and not on good works based on a reliance of oneself
or in ones' ability to live holy by following a given set of rules and yes there is a difference.
Yes, there are moral rules and guidelines to follow and understand as given to us in the Holy Bible, but they are only to instruct me in the ways of righteousness and holiness AS I seek Him inwardly, and personally ...and they teach me of the nature of Jesus.
The scriptures give me an understanding of the nature of Him who has called me out of this world to be His son, to a new life in Him which is hidden in Christ Jesus - the Holy Spirit bears witness to this truth.
His good works in me (holiness) comes, not based on my own understanding of what true holiness is, but rather based on the inner workings of the Holy Spirit in my life since I accepted Him, and it is in my yielding to Him in all things in obedience, and not on my adherence to or on reliance of myself to seek His favour by doing good works (what I perceive as being holiness). It's not what I can do, it's what He does, and can do through me.
Because I love Him in the very pit of my soul, and am truly born of Him, I will seek out those things that always please Him, I will hate the things that He hates, and I will love the things that He loves...if only that I may have just one moment, just one moment in this life that I may truly glorify Him in this earthly body
and this I will do as His Holy Spirit who is within me permits, and teaches me all things.
Does this mean that I will never make a mistake and never sin again? ...no it does not. I hope that I never sin again, but if I do, I know I have an advocate with the Father who is Jesus Christ the righteous. I know that if I acknowledge my sins before God, that He is faithful and just to forgive me and to cleanse me from ALL unrighteousness. And I dare say to anyone that says I need to have good works in order to be forgiven, nothing but the precious blood of the Lamb can erase sins.
The bible teaches me that: Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.
2 Corinthians 5:17
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but a new creation. Galatians 6:15
Hence and therefore my salvation is not based upon me believing that my good works toward Him (personal holiness) will save me (or even merit me any favor at all), but rather on a TOTAL surrender of my life to Him, and upon a reliance on Him for my holiness and righteousness, that He who has begun a good work in me will complete it until the very day of Jesus Christ. Philippians 1:6
I just need only to yield to Him, I just need only to yield to Him and say yes Lord Jesus, yes Lord...have your way in me and be glorified in me, let me be obedient to you through your Holy Spirit.
And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. Romans 6:13
Those who are truly born of the Spirit of God and are led by Him will indeed mortify sin in their lives, whose hearts are right with God.
| 2011/11/9 23:02||Profile|
| Re: |
makrothumia, keeping of the Feast of Tabernacles will be a yearly event, and as the word says, people from the nations or representatives of them will be required to come to Jerusalem for that event. That's all there is to it. Everyone can see it, except people that filter words while the seem to read it with personal objections and reasonings. Most of which reminds me of, "has God really said that? He couldn't actually have meant it, because..... " If you stumble over such litte things, how can you really understand anything that is written when you always bounce it against what you think is practical?
Earendel, you're completely overthinking this , it 's really much more simple in reality. Sabbath, the weekly one is a pre-law perpetual covenant with Israel. This one will never end. (It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever - Exodus 31:17) When it became law it was just a refresher, indicated by "remember...". It's pre-law and after-law, regardless of what one thinks is written on our hearts as part of the new covenant.
And everyone crafted in will be part of it by faith. All gentiles not grafted in yet shouldn't worry about it until they get interested from the heart to know what exactly they are grafted into. By unction in the spirt from the Spirit, you really cannot learn that from other people. Now if one thinks they are spiritual Israel but ignore the everlating covenants you haven't sorted that one out yet, and 'for ever' has not come to you yet in it's full meaning.
You are confusing this with the rest we enter in Jesus, these two are not identical. That is part of the attempt to associate these two together to eliminate the first. It does take some greater ability to differentiate than "7th day adventist types" classification to cut through this vain attempt , maybe someone you already know like the expats at ATN forum can explain it very nicely to you, they know both sides of the understanding, especilaly the ones living over there in the middle east.
The weekly Sabbath will remain for ever, unlike the birthday of Tammuz that will come to an end. We are grafted into a group of God's people that pre-existed already before us, therefore we cannot bring our feasts and traditions. Neither will the Father cancel His feasts because of the gentiles grafted in at a later point, neither will there be two camps in the kingdom with different celebrations. This is all carnal nonsense to suggest so, thinking the soon-to-be bretheren will be grafted into AOG-type churches celebrating with us Christ mass together, how can anybody be so bound to the carnal mind to even think that?
We need to look at the roots of God dealing with His people. There are some things that will remain, going back to creation and will never change. Some covenants are meant to last for ever, Sabbath is one of these everlasting ones, celebrating the Creator, and we stop doing our own things for a day. But I found one cannot really learn that from other people, it's by revelation on an unexpecting day you suddenly see the whole picture all at once and understand the significance of it, and the reason why it seems such a small matter, yet fought over by the biggest institutions like the Pope's church. He understands the significance of it, that's why they changed it to Sunday. And I have to agree with him at least on this one thing, it's an important matter to God, otherwise He wouldn't have made it a perpetual covenant. But that's just the beginning,it has a role to play in two important matters, one is a sign between God and His people, the other has to do with a time He chooses to sanctify His people. This is something to discuss at a time and place where the basic stumbling blocks are overcome.
| 2011/11/10 20:56||Profile|
Central Alberta, Canada
| Re: |
Romans 14:4-13 says:
Who are you to judge anothers servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand.
One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind.
He who observes the day (Sabbath), observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it.
He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks.
For none of us lives to himself, and no one dies to himself. For if we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. Therefore, whether we live or die, we are the Lords.
For to this end Christ died and rose and lived again, that He might be Lord of both the dead and the living.
But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother?
For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written:
As I live, says the LORD,
Every knee shall bow to Me,
And every tongue shall confess to God.
So then each of us shall give account of himself to God. Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather resolve this, not to put a stumbling block or a cause to fall in our brothers way.
It is okay if you want to observe the Saturday Sabbath a servant, but don't make it a law upon Christians, whether Jew or Gentile believer and say you must do this to be saved and here's why.
Question: "How is Jesus our Sabbath Rest?"
Answer: The key to understanding how Jesus is our Sabbath rest is the Hebrew word sabat, which means to rest or stop or cease from work. The origin of the Sabbath goes back to Creation. After creating the heavens and the earth in six days, God rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had made (Genesis 2:2).
This doesnt mean that God was tired and needed a rest. We know that God is omnipotent, literally all-powerful. He has all the power in the universe, He never tires, and His most arduous expenditure of energy does not diminish His power one bit. So, what does it mean that God rested on the seventh day? Simply that He stopped what He was doing. He ceased from His labors. This is important in understanding the establishment of the Sabbath day and the role of Christ as our Sabbath rest.
God used the example of His resting on the seventh day of Creation to establish the principle of the Sabbath day rest for His people. In Exodus 20:8-11 and Deuteronomy 5:12-15, God gave the Israelites the fourth of His Ten Commandments. They were to remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy.
One day out of every seven, they were to rest from their labors and give the same day of rest to their servants and animals. This was not just a physical rest, but a cessation of laboring. Whatever work they were engaged in was to stop for a full day each week. The Sabbath day was established so the people would rest from their labors, only to begin again after a one-day rest.
The various elements of the Sabbath symbolized the coming of the Messiah, who would provide a permanent rest for His people.
Once again the example of resting from our labors comes into play. With the establishment of the Old Testament Law, the Jews were constantly laboring to make themselves acceptable to God. Their labors included trying to obey a myriad of dos and donts of the ceremonial law, the Temple law, the civil law, etc. Of course they couldnt possibly keep all those laws, so God provided an array of sin offerings and sacrifices so they could come to Him for forgiveness and restore fellowship with Him, but only temporarily.
Just as they began their physical labors after a one-day rest, so, too, did they have to continue to offer sacrifices. Hebrews 10:1 tells us that the law can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship.
But these sacrifices were offered in anticipation of the ultimate sacrifice of Christ on the cross, who after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down on the right of God (Hebrews 10:12).
Just as He rested after performing the ultimate sacrifice, He sat down and restedceased from His labor of atonement because there was nothing more to be done, ever. Because of what He did, we no longer have to labor in law-keeping in order to be justified in the sight of God. Jesus was sent so that we might rest in God and in what He has provided.
Another element of the Sabbath day rest which God instituted as a foreshadowing of our complete rest in Christ is that He blessed it, sanctified it, and made it holy. Here again we see the symbol of Christ as our Sabbath restthe holy, perfect Son of God who sanctifies and makes holy all who believe in Him. God sanctified Christ, just as He sanctified the Sabbath day, and sent Him into the world (John 10:36) to be our sacrifice for sin. In Him we find complete rest from the labors of our self-effort, because He alone is holy and righteous. God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God (2 Corinthians 5:21). We can now cease from our spiritual labors and rest in Him, not just one day a week, but always.
Jesus can be our Sabbath rest in part because He is Lord of the Sabbath (Matthew 12:8). As God incarnate, He decides the true meaning of the Sabbath because He created it, and He is our Sabbath rest in the flesh.
When the Pharisees criticized Him for healing on the Sabbath, Jesus reminded them that even they, sinful as they were, would not hesitate to pull a sheep out of a pit on the Sabbath. Because He came to seek and save His sheep who would hear His voice (John 10:3,27) and enter into the Sabbath rest He provided by paying for their sins, He could break the Sabbath rules.
He told the Pharisees that people are more important than sheep and the salvation He provided was more important than rules. By saying, The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath (Mark 2:27), Jesus was restating the principle that the Sabbath rest was instituted to relieve man of his labors, just as He came to relieve us of our attempting to achieve salvation by our works.
We no longer rest for only one day, but forever cease our laboring to attain Gods favor.
Jesus is our rest from works now, just as He is the door to heaven, where we will rest in Him forever.
Hebrews 4 is the definitive passage regarding Jesus as our Sabbath rest.
The writer to the Hebrews exhorts his readers to enter in to the Sabbath rest provided by Christ. After three chapters of telling them that Jesus is superior to the angels and that He is our Apostle and High Priest, he pleads with them to not harden their hearts against Him, as their fathers hardened their hearts against Jehovah in the wilderness.
Because of their unbelief, God denied that generation access to the holy land, saying, They shall not enter into My rest (Hebrews 3:11). In the same way, the writer to the Hebrews begs themand usnot to make the same mistake by rejecting Gods Sabbath rest in Jesus Christ.
There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; for anyone who enters God's rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from his. Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience (Hebrews 4:9-11).
There is no other Sabbath rest besides Jesus.
He alone satisfies the requirements of the Law, and He alone provides the sacrifice that atones for sin.
He is Gods plan for us to cease from the labor of our own works.
We dare not reject this one-and-only Way of salvation (John 14:6).
Gods reaction to those who choose to reject His plan is seen in Numbers 15. A man was found gathering sticks on the Sabbath day, in spite of Gods plain commandment to cease from all labor on the Sabbath. This transgression was a known and willful sin, done with unblushing boldness in broad daylight, in open defiance of the divine authority. And Jehovah said to Moses, The man shall surely be put to death (v. 35). So it will be to all who reject Gods provision for our Sabbath rest in Christ. How shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation? (Hebrews 2:3).
borrowed from: http://www.gotquestions.org/Jesus-Sabbath.html
btw I knew this before, having never had a human teacher on this subject, but being directly taught by the Holy Spirit.
| 2011/11/10 23:59||Profile|
| Re: |
Thank you a servant for continuing to reply. This does help me see a measure of consistency in your position. I noticed that you said "will" go up as in the future. Would I be correct in assuming that you do not go up now because there is no physical temple in Jerusalem?
Would you further explain how you keep these feast now? How did you keep Pasach this year? How did you keep the feast of Tabernacles? What are you waiting for before you go up to Jerusalem yourself? Are there other parts of the Law that you also believe you are not obligated to keep literally today, but will in the future based upon some change?
I hope you recognize that there are those like myself who have real questions about how you work through the difficulty how you decide which parts of the law you adhere to today, and on what biblical basis you have reached your decision that others you will do in the future but are not obligated to do now.
All the men in Israel are to appear before the Lord, three times a year. You know this already. Am I to assume you do not believe that the present day Jerusalem is the place where He has caused His name to dwell? Do you believe that His name is dwelling there now or are you waiting for His temple to be rebuilt so His name can begin to dwell there again? From your replies about simply taking scripture as it is written, I am assuming you have reasons that would cause you to be waiting for some future event before you act according to what is simply written. I am interested in hearing how you have worked through this decision process.
Thank you for your time in responding.
Alan and Dina Martin
| 2011/11/11 7:44||Profile|
| Re: |
Earendel, Thank you for posting that explanation. I get it! The light bulb just came on. :)
| 2011/11/11 19:16||Profile|
| Re: |
"There is no other Sabbath rest besides Jesus."
Isaiah 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
I'm sorry, i cannot take your word for it Earendel, I know you mean good, but i still have to stick with the fullness of scripture. I fully understood your point the first time, yet it's still not the full story. Try to concentrate now for a minute, and ask the Lord why the above scripture does not fit in with your theology. Both of you, Isaiah and Earendel do not agree. Why not?
makrothumia, did Jesus already come back the second time? You just now discovered these are future prophecies? Great.
| 2011/11/11 20:22||Profile|
Anyigba, Kogi State, Nigeria
| Re: Sabbath or no sabbath|
It's really been an interesting topic. But beloved a servant you appear to love the prophets more than the apostles. Assuming someone were to receive only the letter by apostle Paul to the Romans and Galatians, and another person were to receive the entire Old testament, who would you say received fuller revelation? Please, I do not mean to undermine the prophets but I really want to point out that their teachings are not really complete without the light of the New testament, so if you agree with me on this, do you mind buttressing your stand on the Sabbath with any new testament passage?
Love you, a servant.
| 2011/11/12 23:26||Profile|