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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Did Christ miss a chance to knock it out of the park?

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 Did Christ miss a chance to knock it out of the park?

The ball park analogy may have come form Art Katz. I'm not sure but I heard it somewhere I think but it seems apt in this case. Millennial views of the kingdom of God are easily dismissed by large portions of the church today but that may very well indeed come from a non Hebraic reinterpretation of Old Testament prophecy and the words of Christ.

1 - The first account I composed, Theophilus, about all that Jesus began to do and teach,

2 - until the day when He was taken up, after He had by the Holy Spirit given orders to the apostles whom He had chosen.

3 - To these He also presented Himself alive, after His suffering, by many convincing proofs, appearing to them over a period of forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God.

4 - And gathering them together, He commanded them not to leave Jerusalem, but to wait for what the Father had promised, ‘Which,” He said, “you heard of from Me;

5 - for John baptized with water. But you shall be baptized wit the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”

6 - And so when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, “Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?”

7 - He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority;

8 - but you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both n Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth.”

Christ’s last remaining time before His ascension must have seemed almost infinitely valuable and therefore any last instructions and perspectives would have been of more than a little relevance and importance. The last forty days of His appearances with the apostles had been when He had been speaking to them of the kingdom of God (vs. 8) and the coming of the Spirit (vs. 5,8) The pouring out of the Spirit was a eschatological theme of the Old Testament and had long been associated with the coming Messianic kingdom - see Isaiah 59:20-21, Ezekiel 39:29, Joel 2:28-29, John 3:3. Seeing that the coming kingdom and the outpouring of the Spirit were common prophetic themes it was not unusual for them to ask if He would restore the kingdom to Israel at that time. The two had always been associated with each other. No rebuke came from Christ. No admonishment was given to them. If they had it wrong after so long of Him being with them then here was the grand chance to correct them and set them straight one last time. If their aspirations were completely carnal He could have shown them their national aspirations were out of line and dismissed them. Yet He didn’t do a thing to set the record straight. He rather confirmed their hopes and replied that only the Father knew the fixed time for this to happen He had set by His own authority. Their question had not been out of bounds and carnal and the angel’s proclamation, “This same Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same as you watched Him go into heaven,” helps pinpoint when the restoration will happen. Meanwhile, in the interim between His going and coming agin, they were to remain focused on witnessing for Him by the power of the Spirit beginning in Jerusalem. Christ had a chance to set them straight and knock this easily hittable ball out of the park in response to their question of “is it at this time when you are restoring the kingdom to Israel?”. Instead He helped confirm their aspirations.

The kingdom thought of and taught in such a manner was Hebraic in origin and fulfillment in spite of later Gentile adaptations and reinterpretation. Gentiles and their “it’s all a non earthly spiritual kingdom” and any "earthly perspectives are flights of fancy" and to “think of land inheritances as part of the kingdom is carnal” need to remember that whenever a Gentile comes to the Lord that he is entering into a covenant originally made with Israel.


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David Winter

 2011/11/2 9:28Profile
Areadymind
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 Re: Christ missed a chance to knock it out of the park

"Gentiles and their “it’s all a non earthly spiritual kingdom” and any "earthly perspectives are flights of fancy" and to “think of land inheritances as part of the kingdom is carnal” need to remember that whenever a Gentile comes to the Lord that he is entering into a covenant originally made with Israel."

Funny you should mention that. I am studying this right at the moment in a sense. I have often thought that the least commented on portion of the New Covenant is the land promise. Without a land promise there is no New Covenant. If you say that it is merely metaphorical, then to that I will respond that the rest of the covenant must be metaphorical as well. We do not get to pick and choose. God never once made a covenant with a gentile of which I certainly am the most bland and mutt-ish. We need to remember that God is able to "Graft them back into the tree."

The meek SHALL inherit the earth.


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Jeremiah Dusenberry

 2011/11/2 9:38Profile
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 Re:

Many many many people lump premillennialism with dispensationalism and claim it's heretical.

With virtually all of the minor prophets pointing to the physical reign of the messiah, you have to overlook the lot of OT prophecy to get amillennialism, postmillennialism, and the many other unbiblical isms of Christ's reign.

 2011/11/2 17:25Profile
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 Re:

Personally I find the title of this thread offensive. How can you say that Jesus Christ 'missed a chance?????' I read through the original post but found nothing that explained the title. I am aware that by posting on it I am raising it to the top of the list but I would like to know why you choose that phrase. If you really feel that way, I feel very sorry for you.


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Janice

 2011/11/2 20:42Profile
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 Re:

I don't think he's saying Christ was negligent!

If my understanding is correct, he's saying Jesus had the chance to clearly say, "my kingdom is ONLY spiritual. Stop waiting for Israel to be united under a physical, world-based kingdom."

Therefore, by not "hitting it out of the park," he's confirming the Apostles' expectation of a united Israel in an earth based kingdom.

THAT DOESN'T MEAN HE'S SAYING, "AWW JESUS, YOU MESSED UP."

I hope that makes sense.

 2011/11/2 21:12Profile
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 Re: For Areadymind

You said,

"Gentiles and their “it’s all a non earthly spiritual kingdom” and any "earthly perspectives are flights of fancy" and to “think of land inheritances as part of the kingdom is carnal” need to remember that whenever a Gentile comes to the Lord that he is entering into a covenant originally made with Israel."

"Funny you should mention that. I am studying this right at the moment in a sense. I have often thought that the least commented on portion of the New Covenant is the land promise. Without a land promise there is no New Covenant. If you say that it is merely metaphorical, then to that I will respond that the rest of the covenant must be metaphorical as well. We do not get to pick and choose. God never once made a covenant with a gentile of which I certainly am the most bland and mutt-ish. We need to remember that God is able to "Graft them back into the tree."

"The meek SHALL inherit the earth." (END)

Me: Well, I'm glad for the "coincidence" regarding what you are presently studying. Anyway, if you keep at it, I don't think you'll find that in the overall Old and New Testament context seen together that the original land provisions have been done away with because the prophecies were after all just moving toward a allegorical and deeper spiritual fulfillment than what they literally stated. Seeing anything connected with land and earthly connections as carnal is somewhat of a Platonic thought which some of the early church fathers didn't completely divest themselves of. Even Augustine and his great contributions wasn't entirely free of Platonic influences in his thinking. The contemporary interpretation that "My kingdom is not of this world" may not be all that it is often presented to be in my opinion.

And again, in reply to their question, "is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?", look at what Christ's reply was!

Blessings.


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David Winter

 2011/11/2 21:51Profile
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 Re: For njhoover

You said,

Many many many people lump premillennialism with dispensationalism and claim it's heretical.

With virtually all of the minor prophets pointing to the physical reign of the messiah, you have to overlook the lot of OT prophecy to get amillennialism, postmillennialism, and the many other unbiblical isms of Christ's reign. (END)

Me: Believe me I know what you speak of when you many many people lump premillennialism together with dispensationalsim and say its's heretical. It's my exprience that right off the bat many times you're labelled a "dispy" if you refer to anything pre-millennial. It takes a lot of explaining that you're not trying to go there when you honestly aren't.

I do believe also that the OT prophets pointed to the physical reign of Christ. In my opinion, it does nothing to despiritualize the kingdom even when Him ruling from a particular land is indicated.

Thanks.


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David Winter

 2011/11/2 22:01Profile
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 Re: Regarding my intent

njhoover said,

I don't think he's saying Christ was negligent!

If my understanding is correct, he's saying Jesus had the chance to clearly say, "my kingdom is ONLY spiritual. Stop waiting for Israel to be united under a physical, world-based kingdom."

Therefore, by not "hitting it out of the park," he's confirming the Apostles' expectation of a united Israel in an earth based kingdom.

THAT DOESN'T MEAN HE'S SAYING, "AWW JESUS, YOU MESSED UP."

I hope that makes sense. (END)

Me: That's exactly the way I meant it. I'm sorry for any misunderstanding if the title came across to anyone in a negative way. But the way it is stated above is the way I intended it. I made a slight change to the title to help clear it up.

Blessings.


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David Winter

 2011/11/2 22:07Profile
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Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 1196
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 Re:

What I can not understand is how you can accept the thought that Jesus, God of everything, the perfect God, Infallible God, could "miss" a chance.

Perhaps you are looking at it with imperfect, human eyes. Do you know every step in His plan for His creation? What He set out to accomplish, He did exactly what He wanted to do. Nothing was left undone. If you do not understand what you are saying, pray that He will give you eyes to see.

How could you trust your soul's salvation to Him if you think he is capable of 'missing a chance?'

Think about what you are saying about Jesus. Do you really think he missed an opportunity? How could that be possible?

WS


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Janice

 2011/11/3 1:00Profile
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 Re:

WS, I believe he said it tongue in cheek.


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Jeremiah Dusenberry

 2011/11/3 1:25Profile





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