Good questions, DEADn... and I have no idea what the answers are! lol

Krispy

QUOTE:
"My parents used to tell me I was like a "bull in a China shop"... and right they were... and still are."

Now this sounds BAD! But I have been thinking about your posts in recent months, Krispy. The LORD really is changing you, has he not? It is so obvious - at least to those of us who have known you for a long time...God bless! and I hope you are not breaking too much china...:-)

_________________
Sandra Miller

QUOTE:
"One last comment/question on my post here. What percentage of christian couple have this belief? I have never heard of this "mentality" before and I think the average person, christian-nonchristian would be wowed at those who have lots of kids but then looked down upon if those same families had to reach out for food stamps and welfare because they cannot afford the household though God inspired them to have many kids. It doesn't seem practical that this is glorifying God. Help my unbelief in this area because I just shake my head on it."

I shake my head, too. So maybe I am in unbelief?

I would guess most couple know in their heart what size family they believe they can handle. I also know some stop at one or two for selfish reasons, but they have to live with that decision. It would be foolish to insist they have more because of the selfishness that resides there.

How to decide how many? that is something a couple needs to work on, no one can tell you what that number should be.

Having said all this I do find it unsettling that many Christians will choose to limit their family's size to one or two children. These children will grow up being spoiled, believing the world revolves around them. Having more a child will grow up learning to give and take through the squabbles they have with each other. I am told that childhood squabbles is an important part of learning to get along with people. Still mom is called upon the mediate these squabbles - LORD have mercy! Really. No wonder moms get gray!

_________________
Sandra Miller

QUOTE:
"When I was set free by Jesus Christ, I was set free from dogmas."

I am not sure you mean what you said here. Your post is a confirmation of this - your position of no dogma is in its essence a dogma.

To be without dogma one will be tossed to and fro with every wind of doctrine. Scripture teaches us there are absolutes and we need to embrace them.

This is something to think about.

Have a good day.

_________________
Sandra Miller

I want to bump this threat up one more time along with an email you can send your response to.

For the ladies, I have questionaire that begain this thread. Would you be willing to answer the questionaire and send it to :

[email protected]

I have received 2 responses so far. one from this forum and one from a lady who is in leadership with her husband at a church I attend-that was through personal email.


I actually sent 3 emails to 3 independent baptist churches and I haven't seen any acknowlegement of that email. Do you think that means anything?

_________________
John

"For the ladies, I have questionaire that begain this thread. Would you be willing to answer the questionaire and send it to"

I looked at the questionnaire and I don't fit the questions. Perhaps that is the case with others here. I will try to look at it later tonite as I am gone all day. Perhaps you have noticed if you have been on this forum for any length of time, that many of us have a hard time finding a church.....

mama27

This literall hit me like a bolt of lightning- the questionaire I had is actually on a post entitled 'questionaire for the ladies' and for some reason my mindset was that it was on this post. This just hit me and caused my eyes to get BIGGER.

I am sorry for that. Have to look for that other thread. I am sorry for the confusion.

_________________
John

Dear DEADn,

"Lo, children are an heritage of the LORD: and the fruit of the womb is his reward.

As arrows are in the hand of a mighty man; so are children of the youth.

Happy is the man that hath his quiver full of them: they shall not be ashamed, but they shall speak with the enemies in the gate." Psalms 127:3-5


Briefly, neither our Lord Jesus, nor His apostles gave us a clear, definite commandment "to have as many children as God decides to give the willing couple", (the most basic definition of the so-called "Quiverfull" belief.) Therefore, latitude must be extended in the Church with regard to this subject.

That being said, there are good reasons for believers to come to such a conclusion however. Let's explore the Scriptures some...

Please look back to Psalms 127:3 - What does it mean that children are God's heritage; His reward to His people? It means they are to be considered by God's people to be "blessings." Why is this?

Psalms 127:4 - What does it mean that children are like arrows in a warrior's quiver? It means that well-trained children are lethal weapons in the Father's and Mother's hands for God. The implication is: The more arrows a warrior has, the more enemies he can shoot; ergo: the more children, the better for the Kingdom of God.

Psalms 127:5 - What does it mean that a man's children will speak with the enemy? It means that they will grow up to fight against the enemies of God's Kingdom.


In the New Testament, the apostle Paul gives us a few inspired hints as well:

Christian women (in general) are called to be wives and bearers of children. (I Timothy 2:15)
The older Christian widow is expected to have raised children for her husband and God. (I Timothy 5:10.)
The younger Christian widows are instructed to remarry and bear even more children. (I Timothy 5:14.)

But what if God sends "too many" (from the couple's perspective?") What if there are problems? Well, to gain some insight, we could look to one ancient couple who experienced great calamities: The Bible tells us what they said:

"Then said his wife unto him, Dost thou still retain thine integrity? curse God, and die."

"But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips." Job 2:9-10


But you asked some specific questions yourself. You asked:
"One thing I would have to ask is when a couple has , say 10 kids or more, and mom is still able to have kids are those couple waiting upon 'God' to tell them to stop? What is their sign? This is what puzzles me even after reading articles about those who have come out of this quiverfull thing."

I am not absolutely sure. However, one answer could be that God will Himself "close the womb." The Scriptures do seem to imply that our Heavenly Father is the one in charge of either sending children, or withholding them:

"And when the LORD saw that Leah was hated, he OPENED her womb: but Rachel was barren." Genesis 29:31

"And Jacob's anger was kindled against Rachel: and he said, Am I in God's stead, who hath WITHHELD from thee the fruit of the womb?" Genesis 30:2

"And God remembered Rachel, and God hearkened to her, and OPENED her womb. " Genesis 30:22


You write:
"...It is my thinking that if all of this ordained of God would the circumstances not cause the families to be self sufficient somehow? Instead, as you said KK they are reliant on food stamps and so forth which doesn't seem to be bring glory to God. Yet, I know some christians will say children are a blessing from God despite circumstances-yet is that really reality? Is my thinking twisted in this? Is it Godly minded to think like that?"

It is generally understood by Quiverfull families that the same God who sent the blessing of the child, will likewise send the necessary provision. Our Heavenly Father "owns the cattle on a thousand hills", and our Lord Jesus commanded us to "have faith", and not to "worry", but to even trust our Heavenly Father for "our daily bread."

I would think the true questions here are these: Are Christians willing to be HARD workers, and are they willing to have only what God deems absolutely necessary, (shelter, food and clothing?) I guess we, (especially in the West), are used to a certain standard of living, but there may be certain aspects of our standard of living that our Heavenly Father may not think are essential. Are we willing to forgo some of these things to have more "blessings" from God, should He still desire to send them to us?


You ask:
"One last comment/question on my post here. What percentage of christian couple have this belief?"

I don't know exactly what the percentage is now. However, I can tell you this for certain: there will be more next year than there are now. Logic itself tells us that the future belongs to those who have children. The more children born to this generation of believers; the more that can be born in the next.

There is so much more that could be said, or aspects that could be explored, and specific situations that could likewise be addressed, but I would have to write half of a book to do so, at least!

Be well dear DEADn, and God bless everyone who reads,
Doug

I would beg you to reconsider your interest in NLQ (No Longer Quiverfull). I think with careful examination you will find that bitterness is very much the motive for the website.

The premise of the site is to highlight and aid others in escaping from "abuse" within the quiverfull movement. NOTE: I, like others, don't care for the label movement.

But here's the reality. Is there abuse within the families who follow the quiverfull belief? Of course, just as there is within the Baptist, Pentecostal, Lutheran, Methodist, Buddhist, Muslim, Amish, Mennonite, or any other faith. Or within atheist families for that matter. The point is; whether genuinely Christian or not, every faith or denomination is filled with people. And because of the scourge of sin, there will be within those ranks of people; abusers.

So, is abuse more prevalent within the Quiverfull faith? Or even the Christian Patriarchal groups? Do families who follow the male leadership and female submission belief abuse more or less? And can we even know the answer to that?

I believe I can and here's why. As an old salt police officer I have dealt directly or indirectly with literally thousand of domestic violence cases. I have seen the result with my own eyes; everything from mild slaps or pushes to full on beatings.

As a cop, I am sent to extensive training on identifying and prosecuting domestic violence. I see the stats and I hear the stories. And I talk to the DV Advocates.

Couple that with over 30 years active in the church. I have 22 years in credentialed ministry, with 14 years of pastoral ministry under my belt. Through those experiences I have dealt with scores of additional familial abuse situations.

What has all that taught me? Simply this; I have never, ever seen an example of domestic violence within the Quiverfull faith and I live in an area where there is a huge percentage of such folks. I have likewise never seen anything even close within the traditional marriage (husband leadership, wife submission) households. Not one!

I would estimate that well over 90 percent of domestic violence cases are within "mutually submissive" or "equal" households. Even then I think I'm being generous.

And consider this: if abuse were to take place within those groups they would be the most offended and outspoken in their opposition. They would be appalled!

Now let me quote a segment from the article to which you provided a link:

"Michael and Debi Pearl of “No Greater Joy Ministries” are some of the most controversial child training advocates in the world today. Several deaths have occurred in homes following the Pearls advice. [NOTE: I am NOT saying in any way that the Pearls are responsible for the deaths, just that the parents were known to follow their methods.]"

Please take a minute and ponder that. If that statement doesn't get your dander up, I can't imagine why.

If deaths occurred it wasn't because the parents were in any way following the Pearls writings, teachings, or beliefs. In fact, the murderers would, by necessity, have gone in complete opposition to anything that the Pearls advocate or teach. To even offer a veiled accusation, as this writer has done, is atrocious. And the silly disclaimer: NOTE: “I am NOT saying in any way that the Pearls are responsible for the deaths, just that the parents were known to follow their methods.]" Really? Then why put such a horrible and misleading statement within the article?

I can understand that kind of behavior from the unsaved but when someone claiming to be Christian participates in such actions, it’s inconceivable!

And the people weren’t “known to follow their methods.” The Pearls methods would never contribute to such abuse, quite the contrary.

For an example, I took my vehicle in for repairs awhile back. The differential seal needed replaced. After receiving the rig back, the differential went out about a week later. I had it towed to the repair shop which did the work. The owner was livid. The mechanic who made the repair did the work wrong. Now the owner is a tremendous mechanic and SAE certified. And his employee was trained by him.

So, who’s at fault was the defect? The owner who taught how to do the work properly or the trainee who performed the work completely contrary to the way he was trained?

I apologize as I realize that this became long winded. In summery, please reconsider the NLQ site. You will find that most of the articles on the marriage relationship and child rearing are based on secular ideals while the majority of what the Pears teach is Biblically sound. Do I agree with everything the Pearls teach? No, of course not. Do I agree with the Quiverfull ideals? I’ll answer by stating that I have 2 children and very happily so.

But the difference between what I read on NLQ and what I read from the Pearls is polar opposites. The Pearls and others within the Quiverfull faith display such genuineness of spirit and a passion for God’s Word and truth. NLQ and others seems to operate from a deep root of bitterness and their teachings focus around their will rather than the will of God.

_________________
Jim

"mama27

This literall hit me like a bolt of lightning- the questionaire I had is actually on a post entitled 'questionaire for the ladies' and for some reason my mindset was that it was on this post. This just hit me and caused my eyes to get BIGGER.

I am sorry for that. Have to look for that other thread. I am sorry for the confusion."


DeadN - I just saw this since Quiverfull was back on the front page.....I'm sorry I don't understand what you are saying.....Mama27

I also want to thank Baldmtnman and Dietolive for your posts - this is my experience with the "Quiverfull movement" - I'm sorry - I still hate the term....We are just people who have tried to follow the Lord to the best we are able and have given Him our very lives in the raising of our children - it is supposed to be that we raise them FOR HIM.....