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Joined: 2004/12/19
Posts: 19
Australia, Queensland, Brisbane

 The Bible contradicts itself

How come in Job 9:20, Job says he is not perfect: "But? AmI righteous? my own mouth says no. Even I f I were perfect, God would prove me wicked." But then in Job 27:5 he says he is perfect, "I will never, never agree that you are right;until I die I will vow my innocence. I am not a sinner-I repeat it again and again. My conscience is clear for as longa s I live." And then in the new testament it says that if anyone says they are not a sinner they are a liar. Paul also says that his conscious is clear and that he hasn't sealed his fate and sinned.

Is salvation a free gift that can't be lost or is it a prize that has to be worked for and can be lost. In Romans it says we are saved by faith but then in Hebrews it says we can loose our salvation if we do wrong things(Hebrews 10:26). It also says that our sinful nature has died and we have the power to not sin, but then in Romans it says even though I try not to sin I still sin. In the old testament it says that if a bad person becomes good he is saved, but if a good person sins he is not saved anymore and never can be. It says be glad when you are tempted, but how can i be glad when it says that if I fail now that I'm a Christian I'll die. He says ask and you'll receive but when I ask for things that are not selfish or against his will, even after 10 years they haven't happened. He says he'll give me life in abundance, but then I'm miserable and in huge pain and suicidal for 10 years even though I'm a christian.

From Tanya


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Peter

 2004/12/31 23:31Profile
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Joined: 2004/12/19
Posts: 19
Australia, Queensland, Brisbane

 Re: The Bible contradicts itself


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Peter

 2005/1/1 0:45Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: The Bible contradicts itself

Hi Tanya,

There is quite a bit here and in due time think there will be some better response's to come along.

It's a bit difficult to ascertain all this without knowing more about you, your background, what teaching you may have been under etc.

I do feel for you as I struggled with many of the same questions at one point, certainly am a long way from having it all figured out. Do hope you are reading these things in their particular context because what we have in scripture is 'apparent' contradictions, not one contradicting the other as you suppose. Also be careful of the tense of the words used and the setting they are in. This may be old hat to you but the adage "what's the 'therefore, there for?"
is a great reminder to backtrack and get the context of the verse as well as reading on past to find out where it is going.

Do you have a good commentary? Have you ever heard of [url=http://www.e-sword.net/bibles.html]E-sword[/url]? It's free and you can download a number of excellent commentaries as well as different versions of the Bible, Strong's concordance, dictionary's etc.

Briefly, the illustration of Job, don't know what version you are quoting from but in Job 27:5, Job is not claiming to be perfect, but appealing to his integrity;

(From John Gill's commentary)

[b]Job 27:5 - God forbid that I should justify you,....[/b] Not but that he counted them righteous and good men God-ward; he did not take upon him to judge their state, and to justify or condemn them with respect to their everlasting condition; but he could not justify them in their censures of him, and say they did a right thing in charging him with wickedness and hypocrisy; nor could he justify them in all their sentiments and doctrines which they had delivered concerning the punishment of the wicked in this life, and the happiness that attends all good men; and that a man by his outward circumstances may be known to be either a good man or a bad man; such things as these he could not say were right; for so to do would be to call evil good, and good evil; and therefore he expresses his utmost abhorrence and detestation of showing his approbation of such conduct as theirs towards him, and of such unbecoming sentiments of God, and of his dealings, they had entertained; and to join in with which would be a profanation and a pollution, as the word used by him signifies; he could not do it without defiling his conscience, and profaning truth:

[b]until I die one will not remove my integrity from me;[/b] Job was an upright man both in heart and life, through the grace of God bestowed on him; and he continued in his integrity, notwithstanding the temptations of Satan, and his attacks upon him, and the solicitations of his wife; and he determined through the grace of God to persist therein to the end of his life; though what he chiefly means here is, that he would not part with his character as an upright man, which he had always had, and God himself had bore testimony to; he would never give up this till he gave up the ghost; he would never suffer his integrity to be removed from him, nor remove it from himself by denying that it belonged to him, which his friends bore hard upon him to do. So Jarchi paraphrases it,

"I will not confess (or agree) to your saying, that I am not upright;''

the phrase, "till I die", seems rather to belong to the first clause, though it is true of both, and may be repeated in this.
-------------------------------

Dear sister, hope you hang in there and keep on seeking the Lord. Hope you also will keep on with us here. There are some incredible brethren that can be of much help to all the questions you are asking. I will seriously keep you in prayer.

That the Lord give you wisdom and the Holy Spirit, The Comforter, come and bring peace to your spirit.


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Mike Balog

 2005/1/1 1:17Profile
phebebird
Member



Joined: 2004/11/23
Posts: 91
San Pedro, California

 Re: The Bible contradicts itself

Hi Tanya,
So glad that you posted. So glad that you are so honest. Thanks.

I can really feel your pain, to some degree anyway. Can't say I've ever been suicidal, but I've certainly been a very confused and despairing Christian. I think what is confusing you more than the apparent contradictions in the Bible are the contradictions in your own life--"God, why is my chrisian walk so very differnt from what I read in Your Word when I seem to be trying so hard?" "Why am I still struggling with sin and discouragement and I'm already saved?" Am I right?

Sister Tanya, your biblical questions are all valid and I don't want to discount them, but Jesus is really the best One to explain His own truth. I wandered around in a very spiritual desert of confusion and defeat like the one that you seem to be in now and it was Christ alone that brought me out. We must come to Christ.

Please go with me to Hebrews 11:6. The Bible says that anyone who comes to Him (Christ) must believe that 1. He exists and 2. that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him. We must come knowing that He alone is our answer, that He alone is God. "To whom shall we go, you have the words of eternal life." (John 6:68)

We also must come knowing that He will reward us if we earnestly seek Him. I know you're thinking right now, "But I AM seeking Him and He is not answering!". I screamed that at God in anger more times than I can count, but you know what? One day He said to me, "Phebe, do you really believe I love you?" And you know what? After being a Christian for so long, I don't think I did believe it at all. I knew that I had failed God over and over and I was always striving and pleading with Him and thinking that He was cringing when He saw me coming. But He doesn't. The Bible says that He loves you and delights in you (Jeremiah 31:3, and Isaiah 62:4), and that He WILL reward you if you earnestly seek Him. Do you believe that?

When the Pharisees asked Jesus "What must we do to do the works God requires?", Jesus replied, "The work of God is this: to believe on the One He has sent." (John 6:28-29) That's it. Nothing more. He is enough for us.

Sister, please promise me that you will lay aside everything else (just for now, you can come back to it later) and just seek Jesus Christ. Ask the Holy Spirit to help you to believe in Jesus' love and trust in His character.

"For God so LOVED the world that He gave His only Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved..." John 3:16-17

I will be praying for you.

Phebe


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Phebe

 2005/1/1 2:09Profile
KeithLaMothe
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Joined: 2004/3/28
Posts: 354


 Re:

I prayed but did not respond immediately because I'm little good at this sort of thing over message forums. Thank you, Brother Mike.

The questions about the Bible should be addressed, and I would be happy to offer my limited skills in that, but I do not think that the real problem is an inability to resolve Scriptural tension.

Perhaps the particularly worrying part is a feeling that one sin will send you spiraling to Hell without chance of reprieve. Certainly, there is a way to read the Scriptures that will yield that kind of view, but it is only achieved by ignoring quite a bit of other stuff.

1 John 2:1
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And [b]if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father[/b], Jesus Christ the righteous

Though 1 John is a great place for finding exhortations to holiness, John is clearly not saying that if anyone sins, they were never a Christian or that they've lost their salvation and can never regain it. "If any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous"; it's not over!

But we must also remember to examine ourselves at times:

1 John 1
6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and [b]walk in darkness[/b], we lie, and do not the truth:
7 But if we [b]walk in the light[/b], as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

If we're walking in darkness, continuing in sin, loving sin rather than God... then why should we deceive ourselves into thinking ourselves right with Him? Better to be honest, and deal with the truth by repenting and turning to God.

Suicidal desires did continue in me after my apparent conversion, though God quickly built in me a resistance to them. I don't know if I just wasn't saved yet or what, but in either case God was faithful to pull me through, cleanse me, and bring me to a much greater love of Him and the precious life He gave me.

And if we do truly love God, and remain therein (and the Scriptures do speak of His being quite intent on keeping us), we have great reason to be joyous and confident. The Sovereign God of all creation is on our side, and has for us a love stronger than could possibly be explained. Our response should be the greatest love of which a human is capable, delighting at the mere thought of pleasing God, and despising even the idea of sinning against Him; the kind of love that seeks with great eagerness any way at all that we may serve, obey, and love Him.

It's a perpetually recommended sermon around here, but for good reason:
[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=282]Ten Shekels and a Shirt[/url]

Please give it a listen.

Let us know if we can be of any assistance.

Grace and Peace, from God our Father, and Christ Jesus our Lord,
-Keith

 2005/1/1 2:12Profile
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re: The Bible contradicts itself

In my own experience I have found that the bible is indeed a two-edged sword. If one is not careful wielding it one can hurt oneself. The bible requires interpretation based on revelation by God through the spirit. Although for some it may not seem like a big deal it is the key for without it one can really hurt oneself and others.

Seek God's face earnestly and I pray He shows His face to you.


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Farai Bamu

 2005/1/10 22:23Profile





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