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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Not all recieve the Holy Spirit, because not all ask to recieve it!

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murrcolr
Member



Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1529
Scotland, UK

 Re:

Quote:- We need people that are filled with the Holy Ghost.

Your right we do need people who have beend filled with the Holy Spirit. But those people need to have been brought to the place of death that HE might reign in His fullness so Jesus Christ is able to live and walk in you.

---------------------------------

Ten shekils and a Shirt by Paris Riedhead

But I feel a personal need and a personal lack, I need to be baptized of the Holy Ghost, I need to be filled with the Spirit, and someone told me God done something for you. And I wanted you to help me.”

I looked at the fellow and you know what he looked like? Me. Just looked like me. I just saw in him everything that was in me, you thought ... You thought I was going to say “me before”. No, listen to your heart. If you’ve ever seen yourself you’ll know that you’re never gonna be anything else than you were. For in me in my flesh, there is no good thing.

He's like a fellow driving up in a big Cadillac you know, to someone standing at a filling station saying “Fill her up, Bud, with the highest octane you got.” Well, that’s the way it looked, he wanted power for his program. And God is not going to be a means to anyone’s end.
I said, “I’m awfully sorry, I don’t think I can help you." He said “Why?” "I don’t think you’re ready.

Well suppose, you consider yourself coming up with a Cadillac, you’ve talked about your program, you’ve talked about your radio, you’ve talked about your Sunday school and church. Very good. You’ve done wonderfully well without the power of the Holy Spirit.” That’s what the Chinese Christian said you know when he got back to China. “What impressed you most about America?” He said, “The great things Americans can accomplish without God.”

And he’d accomplished a great deal, admittedly, without God. And now he’s wanting something, power, to accomplish his end even further. I said “No. No. You’re gonna, you're sitting behind the wheel and you’re saying to God, 'Give me power so I can go.' It won't work, you gotta slide over." But I knew that rascal, 'cause I knew me. I said, “No it’ll never do. You gotta get in the back seat.” And I could see him leaning over and grabbing the wheel. “No,” I said. “It’ll never do in the back seat.”

I said “Before God’ll do anything for you, you know what you gotta do?” And he said, “What?” I said, “You gotta get out of the car, take the keys around, open up the trunk lid, hand the keys to the Lord Jesus, get inside the trunk, slam the lid down, whisper through the keyhole, ‘Lord, look, fill her up with anything You want and You drive, it’s up to You from now on.’” That’s why so many people, you know, do not enter into the fullness of Christ because they want to become a Levite with ten shekels and a shirt. They’ve been serving Micah but they think if they had the power of the Holy Ghost they could serve the tribe of Dan. It will never work, never work.

There’s only one reason for God meeting you, and that’s to bring you to the place where, in repentance, you’ve been pardoned for His glory, and in victory, you’ve been brought to the place of death that He might reign and in His fullness Jesus Christ is able to live and walk in you. And your attitude is the attitude of the Lord Himself, who said, “I could do nothing of Myself." I can’t speak of myself. I don’t make plans for myself. My only reason for being is the glory of God in Jesus Christ.


_________________
Colin Murray

 2011/10/18 3:51Profile
Lysa
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3417
This world is not my home anymore.

 Re:

Quote:
twayneb wrote 2011/10/17:
Saying this does not demean Salvation, nor is it about man's effort. We repent and receive salvation not of our own works. We ask and received the baptism of the Holy Spirit not of our own works. But I can tell you from personal experience that this gift from God produces in a man such amazing things and that the Christian walk is attended to with so much more power and victory having received this baptism.


Travis,

I'm just reading this excellent explanation that I hope everyone read even if they disagreed with it, it will surely give them a better understanding.

His post is on the 2nd page, 4th post from the top.

God bless you,
Lisa


_________________
Lisa

 2011/10/18 9:01Profile









 Re: The simolicity of scripture

Luke 11:11-13
Which of you fathers, if your son ask for a fish,will give him a snake instead? Or if be ask for an egg will give him a scorpion? If you then, though you are evil, kniw how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him.

It never ceases to amaze me how something so simple can be debated 9 days to Sunday. God has promised to give the Holy Spirit who will ask but with the faith of a child. John the Baptist testified that Jesus gives the Spirit without limit as he speaks the words of God. Paul asked the Galatians if they recieved the Spirit by believing what they heard or observing the law. The implication was one recieved the Spirit by faith.

In those parts of the world where God is moving the believers have child like faith to believe that God ei give his Spirit who will but ask him. But our theologocal and exegetical arrogance dismisses the work of the Spirit to a bygone era. Praise God the Cbineese, Iranians, Gypsies and other people groups have not gotten this message yet. For truly in their simplicity they believe that God is still doing great thongs.


Dear God with the faith of a child I ask for your Holy Spirit. Please baptize me afresh.with his power. For I pray this in Jesus name.

Blaine

 2011/10/18 10:10
Sree
Member



Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1767


 Holy Spirit to experience heaven

The reason there is a confusion here is posters here are more concerned about going to heaven rather than living a Goldy life on earth. I dont know whether you need Holy spirit to go to heaven. But I know for sure that you need Holy spirit to experience heaven on this earth. The problem with most of the Christians today is their only goal is to go to heaven after death. So they accept Jesus as their savior and they believe that their past sins are cleansed. They again live a sinful life and whenever they get remained of their sins they pray for the blood of Jesus to cleanse their sins. More than 95% Christians are like this today. I don't know whether they will go to heaven, but I know for sure that they will never experience the power of Holy spirit because they don't want it and they don't want a over comer life.
The very first promise of New testament is 'Name this baby Jesus and he will save people from their sins'. This promise is true and should be the basis. But what sins does Jesus save us from? He saves us from 3 kinds of sin.
1. Past sins - by his blood ( by his death as a sacrifice for our sins).
2. Present sins (power of Sin) - by his life he saves us from this power of sin. He rose again after 3 days to be glorified and also send us the holy spirit to save us from power of Sin.
3. Presence of Sin - Jesus will save us from the presence of Sin when he returns to earth for 2nd coming.

So you don't need Holy spirit to save you from the 1st sin, which is your past sin. But if you want to experience heaven on this EARTH by living the life of Jesus then you need Holy spirit. The reason many don't have it because they don't need it. Simple.

LET US NOT HAVE ANY WORTHLESS ARGUMENT ON WHETHER A PERSON WITHOUT HOLY SPIRIT WILL GO TO HEAVEN OR NOT. GOING TO HEAVEN IS NOT CHRISTIANITY, BUT LIVING LIKE JESUS IS CHRISTIANITY. A PERSON WITHOUT HOLY SPIRIT WILL NOT BE ABLE TO LIVE A LIFE OF JESUS.




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Sreeram

 2011/10/18 10:12Profile
njhoover
Member



Joined: 2010/7/31
Posts: 61


 Re: Holy Spirit to experience heaven

sree God has given you wisdom on this issue. Thanks for sharing it.

 2011/10/18 15:59Profile









 Re:

"Your right we do need people who have beend filled with the Holy Spirit. But those people need to have been brought to the place of death that HE might reign in His fullness so Jesus Christ is able to live and walk in you."

A process that is not done overnight. It would be nice if it was.

Paul tells us that we need to come to the realization that we are dead. We need to reckon ourselves to be dead indeed unto sin and alive unto God.

Everyone here longs for that, but God gives the Holy Spirit before all this takes place.

Ezekiel 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

Ezekiel 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

If we have to wait until we are good enough, or dead enough then the cross is of no value to us. The cross tells us that we are dead because Christ was the man that should die, the second Adam thee man for all men everywhere died for all. All men are dead to sin. Some Christians know it, some Christians don't. Though the world has no light on the matter, the fact of the matter is that they have been crucified with Christ, they need an ear to hear the gospel for them to see what Christ has done and believe it.

The Holy Ghost is come to confirm the work of what Christ has done and bring it into an effect in a man's life and to bring forth the fruits thereof, thus pleasing God.

When the power of God descends (and it will), the debate whether He empowers man with the Holy Ghost after salvation or before will matter little.

 2011/10/20 11:11









 Re: Holy Spirit to experience heaven

sree... allow me to respond to what you wrote. I agree with some of it, but there are parts that I either have misunderstood what you were trying to say... or I simply dont agree:

Quote:
The reason there is a confusion here is posters here are more concerned about going to heaven rather than living a Goldy life on earth.



Are you sure? How do you know this? Dont you think thats quite a judgemental thing to say about people you've never met.

Quote:
They again live a sinful life and whenever they get remained of their sins they pray for the blood of Jesus to cleanse their sins. More than 95% Christians are like this today.



Actually, according to the Bible, the reason they continue to live a sinful lifestyle is because they were never truly saved to begin with... therefore they are not Christians. (There is a difference between a perpetually sinful lifestyle, and a true Christian who sins but struggles not to)

Quote:
I don't know whether they will go to heaven...



I think I do! Why? Because the Bible tells me so. Start at 1 Corinthians 6 and chain reference your way around the New Testament. (The answer is "NO!" ... a "christian" who lives a perpetually sinful lifestyle with no signs of repentence in their life... will not go to heaven... because they are not saved!)

Quote:
but I know for sure that they will never experience the power of Holy spirit because they don't want it and they don't want a over comer life.



True, they dont want it... I agree. But the reason they dont want it is because they are NOT saved, and therefore it is not theirs to have. They HATE God... why would they even desire the Holy Spirit?

Quote:
The very first promise of New testament is 'Name this baby Jesus and he will save people from their sins'.



I need some clarification on this one... I think I know what you are saying, but just want to make sure you are NOT saying that the promise was "IF you name the baby Jesus... He will save people from their sins." They were commanded to name Him Jesus. He was going to save people, period. It wasnt contingent upon whether they named Him Jesus or not. I dont think thats what you are saying, but the way you worded that, I just want to make sure.

Quote:
But what sins does Jesus save us from? He saves us from 3 kinds of sin.
1. Past sins - by his blood ( by his death as a sacrifice for our sins).
2. Present sins (power of Sin) - by his life he saves us from this power of sin. He rose again after 3 days to be glorified and also send us the holy spirit to save us from power of Sin.
3. Presence of Sin - Jesus will save us from the presence of Sin when he returns to earth for 2nd coming.



I agree with this.

Quote:
So you don't need Holy spirit to save you from the 1st sin, which is your past sin.



The Holy Spirit does not save you from ANY of your sins, past, present or future... the BLOOD OF JESUS saves you. His sacrifice is what paid your price. You are incorrect on this point. The Holy Spirit empowers us to live the Christian life... but the BLOOD OF JESUS is what saves us. Not to be rude but you are waaaay off base here, if I understand you correctly.

Quote:
The reason many don't have it because they don't need it. Simple.



No... the reason many dont have it is because they have never truly been saved. Oh they need it! But they are not saved, so they dont want it... and cant have it anyway. They need to repent and put their faith in Christ. THEN they will have the Holy Spirit.

Quote:
LET US NOT HAVE ANY WORTHLESS ARGUMENT ON WHETHER A PERSON WITHOUT HOLY SPIRIT WILL GO TO HEAVEN OR NOT.



Well, there is no argument... you are correct. This is like asking can a man get married without a bride? They cant go to heaven without the Holy Spirit because they need to get saved in order to have both! Get saved... and you have both!

Quote:
GOING TO HEAVEN IS NOT CHRISTIANITY, BUT LIVING LIKE JESUS IS CHRISTIANITY.



I dont get the point. Heaven is the end result of Christianity. Living the Christian life is called "sanctification"... we are being sanctified as we walk out our faith. Getting to heaven is called "glorification". BOTH are equal components in salvation.

Quote:
A PERSON WITHOUT HOLY SPIRIT WILL NOT BE ABLE TO LIVE A LIFE OF JESUS.



OK... correct, but let me finish this for you:

A PERSON WITHOUT HOLY SPIRIT WILL NOT BE ABLE TO LIVE A LIFE OF JESUS... BECAUSE THEY DO NOT EVEN KNOW WHO JESUS IS... BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT SAVED!

Krispy


 2011/10/20 12:53
murrcolr
Member



Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1529
Scotland, UK

 Re:

Quote:- A process that is not done overnight. It would be nice if it was.

Paul tells us that we need to come to the realization that we are dead. We need to reckon ourselves to be dead indeed unto sin and alive unto God.

To have life in Himself is the prerogative of God alone, and of the Son, to whom the Father hath also given it. To seek life, not in itself, but in God, is the highest honour of the creature. To live in and to himself is the folly and guilt of sinful man; to live to God in Christ, the blessedness of the believer. To deny, to hate, to forsake, to lose his own life, such is the secret of the life of faith. "I live, yet NOT I, but Christ liveth in me"; "NOT I, but the grace of God which is with me": this is the testimony of each one who has found out what it is to give up his own life, and to receive instead the blessed life of Christ within us. There is no path to true life, to abiding in Christ, than that which our Lord went before us-through death.

At the first commencement of the Christian life, but few see this. In the joy of pardon, they feel constrained to live for Christ, and trust with the help of God to be enabled to do so. They are as yet ignorant of the terrible enmity of the flesh against God, and its absolute refusal in the believer to be subject to the law of God. They know not yet that nothing but death, the absolute surrender to death of all that is of nature, will suffice, if the life of God is to be manifested in them with power. But bitter experience of failure soon teaches them the insufficiency of what they have yet known of Christ's power to save, and deep bear t-longings are awakened to know Him better. He lovingly points them to His cross. He tells them that as there, in the faith of His death as their substitute, they found their title to life, so there they shall enter into its fuller experience too. He asks them if they are indeed willing to drink of the cup of which He drank-to be crucified and to die with Him. He teaches them that in Him they are indeed already crucified and deadall unknowing, at conversion they became partakers of His death. But what they need now is to give a full and intelligent consent to what they received ere they understood it, by an act of their own choice to will to die with Christ.

This demand of Christ's is one of unspeakable solemnity. Many a believer shrinks back from it. He can hardly understand it. He has become so accustomed to a low life of continual stumbling, that he hardly desires, and still less expects, deliverance. Holiness, perfect conformity to Jesus, unbroken fellowship with His love,can scarcely be counted distinct articles of his creed. Where there is not intense longing to be kept to the utmost from sinning, and to be brought into the closest possible union with the Saviour, the thought of being crucified with Him can find no entrance. The only impression it makes is that of suffering and shame: such a one is content that Jesus bore the cross, and so won for him the crown he hopes to wear. How different the light in which the believer who is really seeking to abide fully in Christ looks upon it. Bitter experience has taught him how, both in the matter of entire surrender and simple trust, his greatest enemy in the abiding life, is SELF. Now it refuses to give up its will; then again, by its working, it hinders God's work. Unless this life of self, with its willing and working, be displaced by the life of Christ, with His willing and working, to abide in Him will be impossible. And then comes the solemn question from Him who died on the cross: "Are you ready to give up self to the death?" You yourself, the living person born of God, are already in me dead to sin and alive to God; but are you ready now, in the power of this death, to mortify your members, to give up self entirely to its death of the cross, to be kept there until it be wholly destroyed? The question is a heart-searching one. Ain I prepared to say that the old self shall no longer have a word to say; that it shall not be allowed to have a single thought, however natural-not a single feeling, however gratifying-not a single wish or work, however right?

Is this in very deed what He requires? Is not our nature God's handiwork, and may not our natural powers be sanctified to His service? They may and must indeed. But perhaps you have not yet seen how the only way they can be sanctified is that they be taken from under the power of self, and brought under the power of the life of Christ. Think not that this is a work that you can do, because you earnestly desire it, and are indeed one of His redeemed ones. No, there is no way to the altar of consecration but through death. As you yielded yourself a sacrifice on God's altar as one alive from the dead (Rom.6:13, 7:1), so each power of your nature-each talent, gift, possession, that is really to be holiness to the Lord-must be separated from the power of sin and self, and laid on the altar to be consumed by the fire that is ever burning there. It is in the mortifying, the slaying of self, that the wonderful powers with which God has fitted you to serve Him, can be set free for a complete surrender to God, and offered to Him to be accepted, and sanctified, and used. And though, as long as you are in the flesh, there is no thought of being able to say that self is dead, yet when the life of Christ is allowed to take full possession, self can be so kept in its crucifixion place, and under its sentence of death, that it shall have ho dominion over you, not for a single moment. Jesus Christ becomes your second self.

Believer! would you truly and fully abide in Christ, prepare yourself to part for ever from self, and not to allow it, even for a single moment, to have aught to say in your inner life. If you are willing to come entirely away out of self, and to allow Jesus Christ to become your life within you, inspiring all your thinking, feeling, acting, in things temporal and spiritual, He is ready to undertake the charge. In the fullest and widest sense the word life ever can have, He will be your life, extending His interest and influence to each one, even the minutest, of the thousand things that make up your daily life. To do this He asks but one thing: Come away out of self and its life, abide in Christ and the Christ life, and Christ will be your life. The power of His holy presence will cast out the old life.

To this end give up self at once and for ever. If you have never yet dared to do it, for fear you might fail of your engagement, do it now, in view of the promise Christ gives you that His life will take the place of the old life. Try and realize that though self is not dead, you are indeed dead to self. Self is still strong and living, but it has no power over you. You, your renewed nature-you, your new self, begotten again in Jesus death in Christ has freed you completely from the control of self: it has no power over you, except as you, in ignorance, or unwatchfulness, or unbelief, consent to yield to its usurped authority. Come and accept by faith simply and heartily the glorious position you have in Christ. As one who, in Christ, has a life dead to self, as one who is freed from the dominion of self, and has received His divine life to take the place of self, to be the animating and inspiring principle of your life, venture boldly to plant the foot upon the neck of this enemy of yours and your Lord's. Be of good courage, only believe; fear not to take the irrevocable step, and to say that you have once for all given up self to the death for which it has been crucified in Christ (Rom.6:6). And trust Jesus the Crucified One to hold self to the cross, and to fill its place in you with His own blessed resurrection life.

In this faith, abide in Christ! Cling to Him; rest on Him; hope on Him. Daily renew your consecration; daily accept afresh your position as ransomed from your tyrant, and now in turn made a conqueror. Daily look with holy fear on the enemy, self, struggling to get free from the cross, seeking to allure you into giving it some little liberty, or else ready to deceive you by its profession of willingness now to do service to Christ. Remember, self seeking to serve God is more dangerous than self refusing obedience. Look upon it with holy fear, and hide yourself in Christ: in Him alone is your safety. Abide thus in Him; He has promised to abide in you. He will teach you to be humble and watchful. He will teach you to be happy and trustful. Bring every interest of your life, every power of your nature, all the unceasing flow of thought, and will, and feeling, that makes up life, and trust Him to take the place that self once filled so easily and so naturally. Jesus Christ will indeed take possession of you and dwell in you; and in the restfulness and peace and grace of the new life you shall have unceasing joy at the wondrous exchange that has been made-the corning out of self to abide in Christ alone.

NOTE

In his work on Sanctification, Marshall, in the twelfth chapter, on "Holiness through faith alone," puts with great force the danger in which the Christian is of seeking sanctification in the power of the flesh, with the help of Christ, instead of looking for it to Christ alone, and receiving it from Him by faith. He reminds us how there are two natures in the believer, and so two ways of seeking holiness, according as we allow the principles of the one or other nature to guide us. The one is the carnal way, in which we put forth our utmost efforts and resolutions, trusting Christ to help us in doing so. The other the spiritual way, in which, as those who have died, and can do nothing, our one care is to receive Christ day by day, and at every step to let Him live and work in us.

"Despair of purging the flesh or natural man of its sinful lusts and inclinations, and of practising holiness by your willing sand resolving to do the best that lieth in your own power, and trusting on the grace of God and Christ to help you in such resolutions and endeavours. Rather resolve to trust on Christ to work in you to will and to do by His own power according to His own good pleasure. They that are convinced of their own sin and misery do commonly first think to tame the flesh, and to subdue and root out its lusts, and to make their corrupt nature to be better-natured and inclined to holiness by theirstruggling and wrestling with it; and if they can but bring their hearts to a full purpose and resolution to do the best that lieth in them, they hope that by such a resolution they shall be able to achieve great enterprises in the conquests of their lusts and performance of the most difficult duties. It is the great work of some zealous divines in their preachings and writings to stir up people to this resolution, wherein they place the chiefest turningpoint from sin to godliness. And they think that this is not contrary to the life of faith, because they trust in the grace of God through Christ to help them in all such resolutions and endeavours. Thus they endeavour to reform their old state, and to be made perfect in the flesh, instead of putting it off and walking according to the new state in Christ. They trust on low carnal thins for holiness, and upon the acts of their own will, their purposes, resolutions, and endeavours, instead of Christ; and they trust to Christ to help them in this carnal way; whereas true faith would teach them that they are nothing, and that they do but labour in vain."

And not in Self Andrew Murrau


https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=1766






_________________
Colin Murray

 2011/10/20 13:29Profile
Sree
Member



Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1767


 Re:

Krispy,

Quote:

Quote:
So you don't need Holy spirit to save you from the 1st sin, which is your past sin.



The Holy Spirit does not save you from ANY of your sins, past, present or future... the BLOOD OF JESUS saves you. His sacrifice is what paid your price. You are incorrect on this point. The Holy Spirit empowers us to live the Christian life... but the BLOOD OF JESUS is what saves us. Not to be rude but you are waaaay off base here, if I understand you correctly.




I think the main difference between both of us is this, the power of the blood of Jesus. I believe that the blood of Jesus has power to cleanse all my sins. No doubt about it. But to prevent me from committing sins in future, I cannot rely on the power of his blood but I need to rely on Holy Spirit whom he has sent when he was glorified.
Revelation 12 -Verse 11-
They triumphed over him
by the blood of the Lamb
and by the word of their testimony;
So it is not just the blood of Jesus but also the testimony of our life which comes from obedience to Holy Spirit only helps us to overcome Satan.
So when a person is born again by which I mean that
1. he/she accepts Jesus as lord
2. believes that his blood has cleansed all his/her sins
3. repented from old life
is justified by God. But to be saved from the power of Sin a person has to accept Holy Spirit and learn to be obedient to the spirit which comes from brokenness (poor in spirit).

I will answer you in subsequent messages.


_________________
Sreeram

 2011/10/20 14:11Profile
Sree
Member



Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1767


 Re:

Quote:
Quote:
The reason there is a confusion here is posters here are more concerned about going to heaven rather than living a Goldy life on earth.



Are you sure? How do you know this? Dont you think thats quite a judgemental thing to say about people you've never met.


I did not judge anyone, but I just felt that the conversation was more about the need of Holy spirit to go to heaven instead of real Christianity which is a way of life of Jesus. I meant that the main concern of posters in this thread (not in their personal life) was entering Heaven with or without Holy Spirit. I wanted them to think about the life of Jesus which is superior to any heaven we may enter. May be I did not put it right, my apology for them. I do not consider it wrong to be concerned about going to Heaven also. Each of us have different driving factors. Also I thank you for taking time to understand my post, I have great respect for your understand of scripture.
Quote:

Quote:
GOING TO HEAVEN IS NOT CHRISTIANITY, BUT LIVING LIKE JESUS IS CHRISTIANITY.



I don't get the point. Heaven is the end result of Christianity. Living the Christian life is called "sanctification"... we are being sanctified as we walk out our faith. Getting to heaven is called "glorification". BOTH are equal components in salvation.



Again we differ here widely. To be clear, I do not reject the importance of Glorification, it is very important but personally I have accepted Jesus in my life not to be glorified after death but to do the will of God on this earth.
Jesus said Luke 17-21- the Kingdom of God is already within you. Which means you don't need to wait for entering it but you can start experiencing it here. I give more importance to experiencing heaven on this earth like Jesus did (sleeping in a boat caught in storm etc). I believe I can do that with the power of the same Holy Spirit that enabled Jesus to do that. Jesus was tempted in all areas like me and he did not fall but rejoiced because he had Holy Spirit (Hebrews) which is also promised to me.


_________________
Sreeram

 2011/10/20 14:28Profile





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