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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Not all recieve the Holy Spirit, because not all ask to recieve it!

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Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707
Ca.

 Re:

We don't receive salvation in parts and peaces. We get the whole at God's rebirthing His Son in us at conversion or if you like at regeneration by Justification. The only thing we receive in parts and peaces is the renewing of our mind to the Mind of Christ, Sanctification, to the wisdom God has made Christ unto us, 1 Cor 1:30,that is precept upon precept and line upon line. This is done by revelation of the Holy Spirit to the Mind of Christ which we "have" at salvation by believing God, that, Jesus Christ is the Son of God and He died in our place and gives us new life in Himself, comforted and taught by revelation of the Holy Spirit "Parakleet"-Teacher. If we ask for more of the Holy Spirit, we are in error, we have all of Him, you cannot divide the person Jesus Christ or the Holy Spirit, in asking we are simply agreeing with the Word of God, that which we already have, it is like the garment we have in the closet, we have it, all we have to do is put it on.

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2011/10/17 15:14Profile









 Re:

Well articulated, Phillip! Amen...

Krispy

 2011/10/17 15:19
hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re:

God works it seems to me in scripture in different ways with different men (and women) some things are equal for all, salvation etc. But as for the Holy Spirit from my understanding some may receive "the fullness of the spirit" from their christian birth, some may "ask" for it later. By this i do not mean to separate christ from the holy spirit, I mean it as when we are saved we have christ, we have all of him and what he has done, yet there is a growing in him, growing of more christlike character and humility and love.

A greater separation from sin and worldliness. And from the word it seems many had a "second blessing" or whatever name we call it by, after salvation some had a second encounter that deepened their walk, their boldness in christ and their faith.

By this i also do not mean as some say that the second blessing means you will ALWAYS upon receiving this by faith speak in tongues or some other sure sign, you may if God gives you this gift or you may not. But still i am at this stage of my walk and understanding that there is available for all believers that has faith for a deeper work and this is Gods equipping us for his work through us in our lives.

God bless you and let us seek all to be more moved and filled with Him and His spirit.

brother christian


_________________
CHRISTIAN

 2011/10/17 15:34Profile
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2007
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
So are you saying that some Christians who have been truly regenerated and saved by the grace of God do not have the Holy Spirit in their lives? And that in order to have the Holy Spirit in their lives they must do so by way of works (asking for it and believing)? In other words they must earn it... by making the right decision, which would be deciding to ask God for it?

Does this not elevate man just a smidgen? In other words, if things are as you have interpretted scripture to say that they are... then you are a better child of God than someone else because you were smart enough to ask God for the Holy Spirit, and exercised more of your own conjured up faith in order to receive it.

Is this correct?

By the way, I'm not knocking The Cross and the Switchblade... but I'm only concerned about what the Bible says.

Krispy



Krispy: I can give you my best understanding on the issue. Someone mentioned that it is a controversial issue. Perhaps it can be.

I believe scripture clearly teaches that the Holy Spirit is involved in the work of regeneration at salvation. I believe before salvation we are dead as far as our ability to relate to God spiritually. After regeneration we are now alive as far as our relationship with God through the Spirit is concerned. We have a lot of different terms we use in connection with this experience at salvation. We use terms such as "having the Holy Spirit" or "getting the Holy Spirit" or even "being filled with the Holy Spirit." I am not sure if all of our terminology really helps as there are often different meanings attached to these words according to different doctrinal leanings.

In the book of Acts we find 120 believers who spend nearly 50 days tarrying for some event during which they would be indued with power from on high. Now it is not as if the Holy Spirit had never been involved in the affairs of this earth before. The Holy Spirit of God was present at creation as He brooded over the waters and has been intimately involved with man ever since. So this is not the "coming to earth" of the third person of the Godhead for the very first time. We say the "outpouring of the Holy Spirit", but I am not sure that is really helpful terminology to some people.

We do find that these people were already believers, having put their faith in a dead, buried, and risen savior and His sacrifice for their righteousness. To me it begs the question, "If these people were already believers and if the Holy Spirit was not 'coming for the first time' then surely they were already 'filled' right?" Or is there something else going on here?

Paul asked a group of believers if they had received the Holy Ghost since they believed. They were not sure what he was talking about but when he had laid hands on them they also received just as had happened in Acts 2. Again the question arises, "So did these people not "have the Holy Spirit" before this event? If not how is it that they are called believers?"

So you see the questions and the problems that certain phrases cause in the course of asking the questions.

Here is my understanding from scripture. There is a baptism in to Christ (salvation) in which there is a regeneration of the spirit and a opening of communion with God through the Holy Spirit. The person of the Holy Spirit is involved in this transaction absolutely. There is also a second baptism in the Holy Spirit. I agree with many that this baptism produces in the believer power, boldness, holiness, intimacy, gifts, etc. as we see in Acts, 1 Cor., etc. It seem scripturally to be subsequent to and separate from salvation as can be seen in the aforementioned examples from Acts. It was specifically promised by Jesus in John 14-17 or so.

Saying this does not demean Salvation, nor is it about man's effort. We repent and receive salvation not of our own works. We ask and received the baptism of the Holy Spirit not of our own works. But I can tell you from personal experience that this gift from God produces in a man such amazing things and that the Christian walk is attended to with so much more power and victory having received this baptism.

Don't know Krispy if that answers the question or not, but I hope it helps the discussion.


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Travis

 2011/10/17 16:12Profile
PassingThru
Member



Joined: 2005/5/7
Posts: 175


 Re:

Phillip

Quote: We don't receive salvation in parts and peaces....If we ask for more of the Holy Spirit, we are in error, we have all of Him, you cannot divide the person Jesus Christ or the Holy Spirit...

For that statement to be true it would mean that the Holy Spirit was absent from Jesus until the Holy Spirit descended upon him during his water baptism.

How could the Spirit refill that which was already full? I think the Holy Spirit can be received in different capacities. I expect the Holy Spirit was present in Jesus from birth, yet he received a specific anointing at the point of baptism which is probably linked to the His ministry that started at that point.

Personally I think anointing and spiritual gifts are linked directly to one's calling/ministry. If we are saved but not that interested in God's work (and the gifts that he provides for it) we cannot expect to hold an anointing equal to those that are.

I think it is important not to confuse salvation with specific Anointings, Spiritual Gifts, and Ministeries. The Holy Spirit is given to us upon salvation as a seal. That doesn't mean the same Spirit cannot 're-visit' us in a different capacity.

Note that in Acts the beginning of a Christian's ministry often began with the laying on of hands. God also intructed Moses to lay hands on Joshua to pass on the ministry.

1 Corinthians ch.12-14 deal with the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Many people write off the gifts using Chapter 13's conclusion that "Love is above all", however immediately after (14.1) Pauls instructs us to zealously seek after the the gifts with the aim of edifying the church. He is talking to believers here so there is obviously "something more".

On the topic of "Anointing by measure" also notice that Jesus stated that power had left him when the woman touched his cloak for healing.

PassingThru

 2011/10/17 16:22Profile









 Re:

"This is a very controversial topic... but let me say that EVERY believer is sealed with the Holy Spirit and receives the Holy Spirit at conversion. There can be NO conversion without the Holy Spirit."

Yes, and what you just said above IS controversial.

Define conversion.

We always say that we should let the bible speak for itself. I have had conversations in the past about the very scripture that I am about to post. Many do everything they can to say it means something else or try to change the subject. Or they consult the Greek hoping it will say something other than what is being spoken.

We are KJV people, we put down most translations, yet when it comes to the wording in these verses, we are no different than those who read another translation/version, we don't like the wording, so lets consult the Greek.

Lets just accept it and repent of the fact that not all of our theology is as sound as we like to believe.

Acts 8:5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them.

Acts 8:6 And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did.

Here we have a people that have received the Gospel message HEARING and SEEING. The Gospel was believed, faith was ignited and miracles transformed lives.

Acts 8:8 And there was great joy in that city.

Ah conversion!?

Acts 8:12 when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

Acts 8:14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:

They had received the word of God.

Acts 8:16 (For as yet HE WAS FALLEN UPON NONE OF THEM: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

Acts 8:17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

Acts 8:18 And when Simon SAW that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given...

What did Simon see?

What did Simon see that convinced him that he should offer money for the power to which the Apostles possessed?

What did Simon see?









 2011/10/17 18:49
Solomon101
Member



Joined: 2008/4/1
Posts: 531
America's Heartand

 Re:

May I humbly make a suggestion. Before more "opinions" are posted could I suggest actually doing a bit of research and then returning to the topic?

May I suggest going through the entirety of the New Testament and keep a log of each time these two phrases are mentioned-

1. The Spirit WITHIN
2. The Spirit UPON

You will find abundant references to each. However, you will also find that each has its own particular purpose and function. Both are critically important. However, to have water WITHIN me is not the same thing as having water UPON me.....but I do not wish to skew the research.

Also note the difference in FRUIT of the Spirit in contrast to GIFTS of the Spirit. Both are again critically important... but they are obviously NOT the same thing.

I challenge the SI posters to actually read the New Testament and do the research NOT looking to find scripture to defend a cherished point of view but rather to actually find truth... even if it contradicts your mostly deeply held beliefs. That is the only way to true knowledge, IMHO.

Blessings,

Solomon101

PS- the use of caps in this post is simply for emphasis on a particular thought. No "yelling" was intended

 2011/10/17 20:17Profile









 Re:

After He rose, but before He ascended to Heaven ...

Joh 20:20-22 And saying this, He showed them His hands and side. Then seeing the Lord, the disciples rejoiced. Then Jesus said to them again, Peace to you. As the Father has sent Me, I also send you.
And saying this,
*He breathed on them and said to them, Receive the Holy Spirit.*

~~~

After He rose but before He ascended, He commands them to wait in Jerusalem until He send the Baptism of the Holy Spirit ...


Luk 24:49 And, behold, I send forth the promise of My Father on you. But you sit in the city of Jerusalem until you are clothed with power from on high.

Act 1:4,5 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
Act 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

~~~


After He Baptised them in the Holy Spirit - at Pentecost ...


Act 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, He hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.




It looks like maybe just the title of the thread is confusing?

 2011/10/17 21:20
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707
Ca.

 Re:

PassingThru wrote:

Quote: """For that statement to be true it would mean that the Holy Spirit was absent from Jesus until the Holy Spirit descended upon him during his water baptism."""

This baptism had nothing to do with the Spirit in Christ. This was to show that His righteousness was perfect and His Sonship true and Faithful to His Father who was God.

Matthew 3:15-17 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him. And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

"Upon" Him, not in Him. As witnessed by the rest of the Trinity, God the Holy Spirit like a dove and The Voice of God from heaven. """This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.""" Jesus did not have to ask for this.

This witness of His righteousness and His ability and capacity to begin His work on this earth, The Father had given Him before the foundation of the world. EPH 1:4. Slain before the foundation and from the foundation.
Revelation 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

The Cross, The Cross, Nothing I cling to but the Cross. As Paul said, "Preach nothing but Christ and Him Crucified.

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2011/10/17 21:25Profile









 Re:

1. The Spirit WITHIN
2. The Spirit UPON

The Holy Spirit in the Old Testament would come UPON certain individuals to carry out whatever it was that He willed in their lives.

He was never in them because men were not yet cleansed until after the resurrection when Christ would ascend and enter that heavenly temple and make restitution for all things.

The Old Testament ended at the death of Jesus on the cross. Matthew Mark Luke and John and the biography of Jesus were still under the law.

The promise of the Holy Spirit being given in the New Testament is the promise that He would be IN them, not upon them.

John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth Him not, neither knoweth Him: but ye know Him; for He dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Since Jesus is our God, here He was speaking of Himself (His Spirit) when He said, "for He dwelleth with you".

The declaration of this entering in is spoken of by Peter when he said concerning the promise that should come,

Acts 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

The promise is the Holy Ghost which comes to those that ask Him for it.

Matthew 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ASK him?

Matthew 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

Matthew 7:8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

We need to stop looking at the baptism of the Holy Spirit as a Pentecostal/Charismatic phenomenon. True, they messed it up for a lot people who might have once looked into it.

But that shouldn't stop the eager seeker to seek on His own without being apart of that. We need people that are filled with the Holy Ghost.

Why?

Acts 4:8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel,

Acts 4:31 And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.

Acts 13:52 And the disciples were filled with joy, and with the Holy Ghost.

Because the work of the Lord requires it. Within 40 years just a handful of men turned the known world upside down.

There is no sense in saying that we are filled with the Spirit when there is nothing to show for it.

We say the most important virtues is the fruit of the Spirit. That is true, but it's not our fruit, it's the fruit of the Spirit, it's His work shining out through us.

 2011/10/17 23:07





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