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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Given Her for a Covering by Mike Atnip

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"Pilgrim and Sojourner." - 1 Peter 2:11

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 Re:

Quote:
What would be your thoughts on men not covering their heads when praying and prophysying or at any time? It does seem quite important, as we would not want to dishonour our head, who is Christ.

Do we as men ever think about this scripture?



In Christ, I have never felt comfortable to wear a hat while praying or at church. I believe this is important and to obeyed as the Spirit leads us. We must not make these things seem trivial but must come from a heart of obedience to the Lord. Are we willing to obey Him fully because of the love and gratitude for such a great salvation in the blood of Christ.

Perhaps those that argue so much against these things in these threads are not interested in the liberties of others but rather to excuse their lack of desire to obey all of the Lord's commands. Let us not be deceived brethren, we need to and must follow the Lord all the way. Life is here for obedience to the Lord even in the smallest matters.

I have a clear conscience posting these articles as I do "all others" with a Spirit to encourage the saints into all the Scriptures and the ways of God.


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2011/10/13 13:03Profile
Heydave
Member



Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK

 Re:

Greg,

Thank you for your reply.

You say: "In Christ, I have never felt comfortable to wear a hat while praying or at church. I believe this is important and to obeyed as the Spirit leads us. We must not make these things seem trivial but must come from a heart of obedience to the Lord. Are we willing to obey Him fully because of the love and gratitude for such a great salvation in the blood of Christ."

My point is that to be consistant with what you wrote above, then surely the sisters should have their heads covered 'while praying or at church', not neccesarily all the time. Otherwise you would have to say you men should not wear a head covering at anytime.

Does this make sense?

I'm only trying to understand what the correct interpretation is of the command we have to obey.


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Dave

 2011/10/13 14:02Profile
Heydave
Member



Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK

 Re: ginnyrose

Dear sister,

you wrote: It seems as though in our community whenever you have a public meeting like at a farm meeting/supper, college graduation or whatever there is prayer. Always, whenever prayer is about to be said the men will reach up and remove their hats. Every time. This even happened at our son Jonathan's graduation exercises at Mississippi State University where there were several hundred grads participating. But not one of the female students removed her cap!

The obvious question here is why is it OK for the men to wear hats and remove them to pray, but the sisters have to wear coverings all the time. Is there one interpretation of 1 Corinthians 11 for men and another for women? What do you think?


_________________
Dave

 2011/10/13 14:37Profile









 Re:

HI Doug,

Well I am not going to cover how it can be dangerous to focus on the internals, I think all of us have said what we want to say that and of course sometimes one just has to agree to disagree, when contending can go no further.

Two points. 1. I never called you a hypocrite brother, I have no idea how you live your life. My point was that it would be hypocritical if one believed and strongly encouraged the sisters to wear a head covering all the time and they did not have their head uncovered. I am not sure how many ways I can say that I believe the sister should cover their heads while praying and prophesying? I also pointed out that it would be hypocritical if one would to strongly encourage the sisters to cover their heads but then refuse to allow them to fulfill the second part of the sentence from Scrpture " while praying and prophesying." Now brother, only if you yourself do these things would the " hypocrite," charge come from me. I have no idea what you do. I just call for consistancy.

Point 2. Catholics in Europe never had carte blanche to interpret the Scriptures how they pleased, neither did the priests. Most peasents ( which were the vast majority of peoples in Europe) could not even read. And even if they could, there would be a Bible in Church and it would be chained. So they were in no position either way to know about transubstansiation. Dogmas grow out of traditions in the Catholic church which carried and still carries the same wieght as Scriptures...........brother Frank

Edit.......I add these quotes to show you how future Catholic theologians would argue their case......

They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, Flesh which suffered for our sins and which the Father, in His goodness, raised up again. (Ignatius of Antioch, Letter to the Smyrnaeans).

The food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by Him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh are nourished, is both the flesh and the blood of that incarnated Jesus. (Justin Martyr, First Apology).


That bread which you see on the altar, having been sanctified by the word of God, is the Body of Christ. That chalice, or rather, what is in that chalice, having been sanctified by the word of God, is the Blood of Christ. (Augustine, Sermons, 227).

 2011/10/13 15:03









 Re:

Greg writes......

"Perhaps those that argue so much against these things in these threads are not interested in the liberties of others but rather to excuse their lack of desire to obey all of the Lord's commands."

That would definately be a judgment call which of course we are free to do :) ..............brother Frank

 2011/10/13 15:06
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7488
Mississippi

 Re:

HeyDave wrote:
The obvious question here is why is it OK for the men to wear hats and remove them to pray, but the sisters have to wear coverings all the time.

This is not my question - mine is that it appears males instinctively seem to observe it, but do they give credibility to its principle?

Females also wear headgear for weather protection but we do not consider this to be the one and same as a head covering worn for Biblical reasons. But then the caps males wear are for weather protection...Oh well, one can split hairs, ah reckon, on this until the cows come home and still be splitting hairs...

When a lady wears a head covering in the public, it provides her with many opportunities to share the gospel because people ask us why we wear that cap. This is really exciting, I promise! Males rarely get this opportunity - they have to make it. We sisters have it built in because of our observance.

The reason so many males do not want their wives to wear one in public is because they are embarrassed to be with a woman who looks different. They want their wife to look like other women - maybe to show off their feminine specimen to other males?

You asked what I think...

What say, Dave?


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Sandra Miller

 2011/10/13 15:25Profile
dietolive
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Joined: 2007/6/29
Posts: 342


 Re: appolus

Hi Brother,

You wrote:
"And so a major sign for me that hypocrisy is lurking here, is that there is no consistency among those who claim that it is there in Scripture so it must be obeyed despite what we thing( I actually agree with that) If a man thinks a woman should cover her head at all times, he must, and I repeat, must have his head uncovered at all times if he is to be consistent. I am sorry brother but your own explanation about accidents and making exceptions for weather and so on is just slightly strange :)"

What I have said is not "strange", but consistent. If you absolutely, without a doubt, want to please God in this area, then do what He says to do, WHENEVER you pray or prophesy. Simple. Consistent. No contradictions.

As for what else I said about making room for the necessities I mentioned, I will leave the reader to sincerely judge whether doing so is also consistent with the character of God.

****************************

Regarding the True Spiritual Presence of our Lord in Communion, I have no problem with the quotes you gave. These fathers are merely speaking exactly the same way our Lord did:

"Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day."
John 6:53-54

"And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.

And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;

For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins." Matthew 26:26-28

Let me ask you my Brother: Was our Lord “necessarily” calling the bread and cup his “actual” flesh and blood, or not?

If not, why not?

Likewise: were the Fathers that you quoted “necessarily” calling the bread and cup His “actual” flesh and blood, or not?

If so, how so?

By the way, dear Brother, I don't accept the exclusive claims of the Roman Church, and their dogma that a priest has special powers to change bread and wine into the actual body and blood of the Lord, but I do very seriously accept the exclusive claims that Jesus made about His own Communion. Very seriously.

Just some thoughts for you and the reader to consider.

Thank you for giving some explanation for your "hypocrisy" statement. I appreciate you taking the time to do so.

Be well,
Doug

 2011/10/13 16:34Profile
Heydave
Member



Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK

 Re:

Hi Ginnyrose,

I know it was not your question, but to me it is the obvious question that arises from your example.:)

I have only been making one point on this subject...and it is a point of inconsistancy, which you illustrated perfectly.

I am happy that you want to wear a head cap or any other covering if you believe you are doing it 'unto the Lord'.

However from a biblical teaching or command I only know of one place in the bible where a head covering is mentioned (1 Corinthians 11) and this speaks to both men and women. Do you agree?

So let me ask you this.... Do the any of men in your assembly wear hats outside of the meetings and when not gathered to pray etc, e.g. when working etc?
Now is it taught that the women have to wear a covering all the time in public? If the answers to both these questions are yes, then how do you square that with what 1 Corinthians 11 says. As I have said before the only way is to interpret vs. 4 and 5 in a different way for men and for women. That would be inconsistant.

I'm just trying to get folk to think about this in a logical and honest way.

BTW I do think that in an assembly/gathering/church meeting women should wear a covering and men should not cover their heads. This I think is being consistant with what is being commanded in the passage in question.

I'm happy for those who think it is all and any time if they apply the rule to both men and women. i.e men never to wear a head covering, but that's not how I see it.


_________________
Dave

 2011/10/13 16:45Profile
dietolive
Member



Joined: 2007/6/29
Posts: 342


 Re: ginnyrose

Hello Ma'am,

You wrote:
"When a lady wears a head covering in the public, it provides her with many opportunities to share the gospel because people ask us why we wear that cap. This is really exciting, I promise! Males rarely get this opportunity - they have to make it. We sisters have it built in because of our observance."

This has been my experience as well. My wife and I have had several opportunities to witness for Christ specifically because people were curious about her, because of her dress and especially her headcovering. I think the people who have stopped to ask us, were intrigued by such a display: a steadfast woman, apparently fearless in the face of a hostile culture.

You continue:
"The reason so many males do not want their wives to wear one in public is because they are embarrassed to be with a woman who looks different. They want their wife to look like other women - maybe to show off their feminine specimen to other males?"

I suspect you are probably correct. There is a lot working against this particular tradition of the apostles, not the least of which is our shallow culture.

Be well Sister,
Doug

 2011/10/13 16:46Profile









 Re: Raising a concern

Saints I have shared my concerns over these threads as they seem to have a degree of kegakism and oppression. I have read post from sisters who feel they are being put in legalistic bondage by these threads. Whether it is dress, silence, head covering, Bible translation, etc. I see bondage and law. There seens no. grace or freedom.

Those of us who raise a voice of cocern over the above issues should not be construed as beiing antnomian. On more than one occasion I have quoted the verses out of Titus that speak of God's grace teaching us to deny ungodly and wordly passions. Grace also teaches us to live self--controlled and upright lives.

It is the Holy Spirit who empowers us to live out crucified Christ-centered lives. If we are going to madate Biblical holiness by a head covering or Bible translation then we are going beyond what the scripture teaches. Paul writes in Gal.5 what the fruit of the Spirit is. He articulated in 1 Cor.13 what agape love is. Jesus expounds in Mat.5-7 what kingdom holiness is. All of the previous verses speak of a heart work of holiness. That is a heart work wrought by the Holy Spirit.

Jesus spoke of us having a righteousnrss tha surpassed that of even the Pharisees. And their external righteousness was exemplorary. Or so it would seem. Yet the Apostle Paul, a Pharisee and the son of a Pharisee, considered his righteousness as rubbish ehen he met Christ.

Let me ask are we keeping Christ central in this or any of these other threads. I ask where is the cross and the blood of Jesus. Where is his righteousness. The scriptures teach that the righteous live by faith. Also we live by faith and not by sight.

Let us remember it is because of him that we are in Christ Jesus. He has become for us wisdom from God. That is our righteousness, holiness, and redemption. Let us boast in him and his cross. Not our head covering or Bible translation.

Submitted in Christ,

Blaine Scogin

 2011/10/13 17:05





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