Doug said,"Please realize that while the Scriptures do teach that all believers receive the Holy Spirit, they also teach that not all are apostles. Can you see that the promises made to the apostles are for the apostles?"

But your claim is that Jn. 16.13 is exclusively for the apostles.

I disagree. The context of the verse shows otherwise.

Please read John chapters 14, 15 and 16. Or look particularly at Jn. 16. 14,15, the two verses immediately following the verse in question. Jesus is talking about the coming of the Holy Spirit, and He says, "He shall glorify Me." And then, "He shall take of Mine, and shew (it) into you." This is, wonderfully, for all of us. And so with verse 13. This is about the coming of the Comforter to lead the disciples of Christ-- not just the 12 apostles-- into all Truth.

That's my take on this, Doug. No use labouring this further. You have another opinion. We will just have to leave it at that.

_________________
Allan Halton

I understand Brother.

I won't try to bring anything else to this.

Be well,
Doug

Respectfully brothers we may have a different understanding of scripture. But in the end we all love Jesus. Hopefully we have learned from one another. I know ny thoughts have been sharpened through the interaction in this thread. I commend all of the posters who have conducted themselves with civility and respect toward one another even in disagreement. Nay God bkesses each and everyone of you.

I may come back and post on this as God gives me insight. I have followed through on this thread and the post have been thought provoking.

Much blessings.

Blaine

This thread has promoted me to read and meditate again through the book of Acts. In most of our Bibles the book Luke wrote is called the Acts of the Apostles. But it also should be called the Acts of the Holy Spirit. All through out that book we see the Spirit birthing and brooding and nourishing a young, dynamic church that is full of life and wonder of Jesus. We see a church that is a living, breathing, ORGANISM, not an organization.

I find Acts 9:31 to be quite revealing of the life of the church in Acts. The verse says.......Then the church throughout Judea, Galilee, and Sanaria enjoyed a time if peace. It was strengthened and encouraged BY THE HOLY SPIRIT, it grew in numbers, living in the FEAR OF THE LORD........I find the last part of the verse insightful as the Holy Spirit must have been the one to lead that early church in reverential awe if God.

I think the above verse gives us a clue of the dynamic of the Holy Spirit in the church io Acts. As I said in one of my previous post we read Acts akin to Christian fiction. The idea of a church empowered by spiritual power and and aothority is something foreign to our western mindset. Even in those parts of the workd where the Spirit operates in greater freedom we read reports of healings and miracles with disbelief.

But some will say and I agree that joy is in the gospel and not experience. When Tom White of VOM was in Iran sometime ago, he attended a house fellowship of Iranian believers. This was during the time of the protest over the presidential elections two years ago. Tom asked through his interpretor what their greatest motivation for living was. The young adults shouted in their Farsi language SALVATION. Here was a church in oppressive Iran that had the joy of Jesus.

Dare I say that the believers in Iran have far more joy in Jesus than we in America have. Could it be that they have the Holy Spirit we so despsrately lack?

Respectfully submitted,

Blaine Scogin

Brother in all respect, I can attend a Voice if the Martyrs conference and hear speakers who have endured persecution and be more edified than reading Tertullian. Sorry brother. He anf Eusebius and Cyprian don't cut it for ne.

Respectfully submitted,

Blaine

Greg & Doug

I greatly appreciate the gentle spirit in which you responded to my rather sensitive thoughts. I would like to mention a few things though which frustrate me a little.

- The word Gospel (euangelion) literally means 'Good News'. Sure there is a load of watered down stuff that is counterfeit, but still if the real gospel doesn't sound anything like good news then I'd have to question whether it really is a gospel.

-So much of what you both write is polemical against American easy-believism. I don't know whether you think I come from that background or not but for the record I'm not an American (I'm from the UK) and from quite a young age I was taught and have always believed that being a Christian entails a complete life surrender - no easy believism there.

-There is also much polemic against 'the world' and 'worldliness' without much specific on what these definitions actually mean. I reject the attitudes and practices of the world that are opposed to Jesus. However, I refuse to reject the things in the world that are part of God's good creation (food, humour etc.)I drank some coffee today - most of the western (and eastern) world drinks coffee so therefore my coffee drinking is worldly and sinful? Hardly.

I am not intending to be undermining - I'm actually trying to figure out answers to some pretty serious questions. I sometimes think a lot of the stuff here is way too extreme - then again it might actually be the real deal and all the time I really have no idea what side of the fence my soul sits in all of this. Hence my general spiritual misery.

Dear Butters -

You wrote:
"The word Gospel (euangelion) literally means 'Good News'. Sure there is a load of watered down stuff that is counterfeit, but still if the real gospel doesn't sound anything like good news then I'd have to question whether it really is a gospel."

How can we express something so wonderful and so profound, and yet so simple in such a small space? I rather think, my dear Brother (or Sister), that the anointed preaching on this site may be of better service to your seeking soul. So much of our "communion" can be lost in our written "communications"...

But I will try to answer for myself. Please understand: the one writing to you now is a man who was rescued from the pit; from the devastation of sin. I was going down, down, hard into hell. When it is said of one, "He raised the beggar from the dunghill", that pretty well represents me, spiritually-speaking. I was no good, and of no use to God. I was hopeless. I was rubbish.

But then God shined out in my darkness, and shined on me... Why me? Who am I? Nobody! But God said to my soul:

REPENT OF YOUR WAYS.
BELIEVE IN ME.
GO WHERE I LEAD YOU.

Now I serve Him! I was a slave to sin with nothing to look forward to but sinking into the blackness of darkness forever. Now, I am a servant of the living God. I know Him, because he knew me. I love him, because He loved me! And that, my friend, was, and still is, GOOD NEWS.

You wrote:
"So much of what you both write is polemical against American easy-believism"

You have seen some of what I have written concerning the need of the world around me. Yes, I do live in North America, the U.S.A. specifically, where the people are drunk on consumerism, and worship the State, and Sport, and the Entertainment Media. Sadly, many around us profess Christ, but do not stop worshiping these things.

You wrote:
"There is also much polemic against 'the world' and 'worldliness' without much specific on what these definitions actually mean."

Please don't get hung up on things that aren't even mentioned in the New Testament. Rather, if you do as I was trying to get across earlier in this thread, you will be in the Right Way. It doesn't even require being an Early Church scholar.

Get alone. Get a Bible. Ask God to open your eyes, believing He will show you new and marvelous things out of His Word. Start in Matthew and read through to Revelation. Try very hard to read it like you've never read it before. Read it like your life depended on it. Read it like you had seen the very same book in your hands fall out of a hole in the sky.

Read with it with vigor! And as you do, take care to read it very seriously, and very literally, taking care to accept parables and hyperbole as such. Read history as literally true; read dialogue as literally true. Read commandments as literally true.

And as you do, by all means, please do NOT trust your "feelings", for our OWN SPIRIT can and will deceive us whenever we come across the HARD sayings, if we choose to allow them to corrupt the plain meaning of the Holy Words before our eyes.

You wrote:
"I am not intending to be undermining - I'm actually trying to figure out answers to some pretty serious questions. I sometimes think a lot of the stuff here is way too extreme - then again it might actually be the real deal and all the time I really have no idea what side of the fence my soul sits in all of this. Hence my general spiritual misery."

I never believed you were, dear Butters.

As for how serious all of this is, yes it is just that serious. Much of the Church in the West isn't convinced of this however, and so much the more is the shame on our Lord's face because of it.

Be well dear Butters. Please know that I will be remembering you in my praying.

Sincerely,
Doug

Doug

Thank you. I have my questions and concerns, but I feel it is pointless expressing them without being honest about my spiritual state. Thank you for promising to pray: please pray that I would know the love of Jesus in a deep and transforming way as right now he seems very distant.

Bless you

J

I've indeed been bringing you up in my prayers, and as the days go by, know that I will continue to be praying for you.

Please write again when and if you are led to. I know there are others here who care about you too.

Love in Christ,
Doug

EDIT 10-24-2011: I'm still praying for you...