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Discussion Forum : Revivals And Church History : And what about the early church????

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"Pilgrim and Sojourner." - 1 Peter 2:11

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 Re:

Quote:
Can you honestly read through a work such as the 'Shepherd of Hermas' (a highly popular early work) and maintain that it is not at all legalistic and is in firm agreement with the New Testament?



Though I have not recently studied or read the Shepard of Hermes Epistle I do not agree with your statement that it is fully legalistic and not consistent with Scriptures. And to throw out all the Early Church Fathers based on the reading of one of the epistles is wrong also.

I challenge anyone to read all of the early church fathers right after the writings of the New Testament they are full of truth and exhortations towards holiness of living and to maintain the testimony of the Lord in one's walk and life. It is also strange that justification by faith is not mentioned nearly as readily as other New Testament writings. Part of this is to realize that justification is our foundation and to walk that justification out in daily walk was more important to the early church fathers. Easy believism did not exist at all because the cost to be a disciple was clear in those days namely with persecution for all that called on the Name of Jesus Christ.

When I first read the early church father writings I felt they were all legalistic and it seemed like a different Christianity to me. But I have now clearly come to see that they are more consistent with the true spirit of christianity. May God give us eyes to see and not to accept everything that is modern as true. Modern Evangelicalism is full of inconistent truths that are not founded on Scripture and not in church History. May we be brought to the fear of the Lord again in our churches.


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2011/10/10 13:23Profile
dietolive
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Joined: 2007/6/29
Posts: 342


 Re: ADisciple

Dear Brother,
You write:

"His promise is that the Holy Spirit will lead us into "all the truth."

and,

"What is promised to us all is that the Holy Spirit will lead each and every one of us "into all the Truth."

And to this end, our Lord has set in the church various ministries to help the saints along the way. They are for the profit of all-- to lead us into "all riches of the full assurance of understanding."


My dear Brother, I am not sure what is proved by your simply restating your position. I know what you believe.

I asked you though, how do you know for SURE that the promise of being led to all infallible truth given to the apostles was also given to you?


You write:
"You want me to go back to the early church. But let's go back to the beginning. Said Paul, "Follow me, AS I FOLLOW CHRIST." (Implying that if at some juncture he didn't follow Christ, don't follow him anymore.)"


No, no. This is a straw man argument. Neither Brother Greg to my knowledge, nor I, have ever said any such thing.

Of course we urge the reader to go back to the Scriptures; back to the apostles' doctrine. That has been the whole point.

Regarding the Early Church: I am merely affirming what would be obvious to any impartial court of law: The united testimony of the early Church, when they overwhelmingly agree with one another on something, is highly decisive in establishing the truth, because they knew the apostles and/or their direct disciples, or had easy access to those who did.

"Let every man be convinced in his own mind." I understand if, in the end, we just don't see this the same way.

I wish you well,
Doug

 2011/10/10 13:30Profile
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"Pilgrim and Sojourner." - 1 Peter 2:11

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To me also I don't see the validity of the argument that the early church Apostles were more Spirit lead then the Early Church Fathers especially the one's preceding the Apostlles. The Church seemed to be wrought and used by the Holy Spirit of God greatly for the first 200 years of its existence and then some councils and meetings brought slowly about a declension in the midst of the testimony of God.

To say the church was in apostasy right after the last Apostle died is not true and would be inconsistent with clear church history. It is more clear that in our day the church is in apostasy where every man does what is right in his own eyes. Even the use of a forums such as this where people can view their ideas flagrantly for all to see and to believe shows the atmosphere of Christendom we are in. There needs to be a calling back to submission to biblical authority and teachableness on the part of many of the brethren of the Lord.

This does not mean we cannot think or consider things on a medium like this in which the Lord Himself has used in my own life greatly to grow me in the knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ. But we must be careful to use these forums in a way that will be open to learning especially from view points we are not used to.

I personally am not stuck on the early church fathers and have not read them much in the past 5 years but I am of the view that we must humble ourselves as modern evangelicals to learn much from their purer testimony in Christ. Oh brethren may we find in ourselves this humility to learn and not label everything as legalistic that does not fit with our lifestyle, likes or dislikes.

Lord Jesus head of Your Church. Teach us and restore us back to your original intentions in a locality of believers who assemble in your prescribed ways and traditions you set forth in your Holy Apostles. For your Holy Name sake we ask this. Amen.


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2011/10/10 13:43Profile
dietolive
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Joined: 2007/6/29
Posts: 342


 Re: Lord Jesus head of Your Church. Teach us and restore us...

Amen Brother Greg.

Be well,
Doug

 2011/10/10 13:48Profile









 Re:


Brother Doug, what I have seen in the 35 yrs that I've been in the Church is the Spirit of Truth, otherwise known as The Comforter and mainly "The Spirit of GOD" and "The Spirit of Jesus and Christ" being all One in the same, having One function - as Jesus did, as He stated to Pilate at His trial....

Joh 18:37 " .... To this end was I born,
and for this cause came I into the world,
that I should bear witness unto the truth.
Every one that is of the truth heareth My Voice."


Quote:
[Doug]"I have only tried to reason that we all are not promised infallible understanding of the Scriptures, and therefore need the various offices and gifts of one another for this very reason."



Elsewhere, Jesus states that anyone who is 'willing to do the will of the Father, will Know if His [or a] doctrine is true.

Brother, what I mean to say is - over the yrs that I've been in the Bible, I've met countless new-born Christians that hadn't the time as yet to read the Word enough to counter heresies and those who's ability to "study - to be a workman that needs not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth" but The Spirit of Christ gives them, what they call, "a feeling" that a teaching is either true or not.
And others that I know have a distinct way of discerning truth from error by a gift of GOD made especially for them. When they hear error preached, they simply report that they "didn't understand what that person was preaching" - yet when truth is preached, they get that witness and understanding that only His Spirit can give and they are rejoicing for what they hear.

'Our' infalibility is not the test for HIS Faithfulness to guide His Sheep away from hirelings, heretics, false prophets and such. IF HIS Spirit did not constantly witness and guide us into all truth - we wouldn't have a Church left, if it were up to Satan --- but even a babe in Christ can remain open to "that Voice" that constantly leads - not only in sound doctrine, but even in the little things and decisions of life. He's The Good Shepherd that leads His Sheep to safe Pasture and protects them from those wolves that Paul feared would come after he left/died.


Quote:
I understand that what I am saying is "shocking" to some, (as our dear Sister also writes), but it is still true. Consoder this if you will, in the light of the Scriptures themselves. Would Paul, (infallibly inspiried), have written the following, if he believed that all individule believers were all already given the gift of infallibly knowing "all truth" for themselves?



If a person is alone on a deserted island, His Spirit is Still testifying to Truth. There are no favorites among His Sheep. He is speaking regularly to everyone of His Sheep - but the problem of our listening to His "bearing witness to the truth" is just that, our problem and again, as heresy is defined as "choice" - it's our choice whether we 'hear' His Faithful Voice/leading/Spirit.

Babes, teachers or prophets will stand before Him accountable for what they believed, because HE is never silent in His attempts to lead us into all truth - unless we're reprobate.

Thanks again for your reply and bearing with mine.

 2011/10/10 14:21
dietolive
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Joined: 2007/6/29
Posts: 342


 Re: Jesus-is-GOD

Dear Sister - no, thank you for bearing with me!

Well said.... The general truth of what you are writing in your last response cannot be denied; that Christ in general guides His flock, for His glory, and for their good and edification.

At the same time, we must understand that the Bible is "special revelation", i.e. it contains, not promptings or feelings, or inclinations, but rather, concrete facts and instructions.

I will say this, dear Sister: Put a Bible on your castaway's island. Let him read the apostles very seriously and very literally, and you will find that he basically comes to the same conclusions that the Early Church Christians came to, for they used the very same method.

They rejected the culture of the world around them, endeavoring to not let it affect their very serious and very literal reading of the inspired apostles doctrine and traditions.

May I humbly suggest that we go and do likewise? Perhaps we will turn this ugly world upside-down again too.

Be well in the Lord, my Sister!
Doug

 2011/10/10 14:37Profile
ADisciple
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Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 835
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 Re:

Doug asked, "I asked you though, how do you know for SURE that the promise of being led to all infallible truth given to the apostles was also given to you?"

I know for SURE because, as I said, I read the verse (Jn. 16.13) in its context.

Its context is the coming of the Comforter, who obviously is given to more than just the apostles.

It's an astounding statement, I know, so I can understand why you are struggling with it. But we who are Jesus' disciples have this promise-- that the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, will guide us, lead us, into ALL the Truth.

Who is That? Christ Himself. HE is "...the Way, the Truth, and the Life."

This dispensation will not close out till the Holy Spirit has brought those in the church into "all the Truth," to the point that "as He is, so are we in this world."

Wonderful hope!

...What you said about "the straw man argument" went over my head. Sorry. Did you understand what I meant? I am simply reminding you of the counsel of the apostle Paul, who advised us that we should follow him only has he followed Christ.

It's good counsel.

And so I do not intend to go blindly by what the "early church" (defined as the church from AD 100 to AD 300 or so) believed. You say that because of their proximity to the apostles, they are the best interpreters of what the apostles taught. That may or may not be so. The stand I must take is that if, with the help of the Holy Spirit and my own conscience I can be convinced that what they believed is what the apostles actually taught as revealed in Scripture... great.

If not... I am not obliged to follow them.

And the same prinicple applies to any teachers and churches down through the ages of the church from then till now.

AD







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Allan Halton

 2011/10/10 14:40Profile









 Re:

Greg

I think I have to respectfully disagree on that one. While I by no means think that their writings are heretical or to be , I believe many of them (not all) drifted from the spirit of the new testament when it comes to soteriology (I listed some examples on the early church and fear of the Lord thread).

To be honest, I find a great deal of the writings not challenging and edifying, but crushing, discouraging and soul destroying. (then again, I have the same reaction to most of the sermons promoted on this site) .

If any of you want to judge from that I am a backsliding or even unconverted false christian then by all means go ahead.


 2011/10/10 14:56
dietolive
Member



Joined: 2007/6/29
Posts: 342


 Re: ADisciple

Dear Brother,

You write:
"Doug asked, "I asked you though, how do you know for SURE that the promise of being led to all infallible truth given to the apostles was also given to you?"

I know for SURE because, as I said, I read the verse (Jn. 16.13) in its context.

Its context is the coming of the Comforter, who obviously is given to more than just the apostles."

Please realize that while the Scriptures do teach that all believers receive the Holy Spirit, they also teach that not all are apostles. Can you see that the promises made to the apostles are for the apostles? That logically, they do not necessarily apply to evangelists, prophets, pastors, or teachers, as well as those who hold no spiritual office in the Church?

Don't you realize that not all are teachers? That not all have the gift of interpretation? Do you see it, my Brother? I hope you see it, for this becomes exceedingly clear once we step back, let the prejudice of our assumptions fade away, and read John 16 in the context of what ALL the apostles had to say about the Spirit's ministry to the rest of us, who are not the apostles.

You said:
"...What you said about "the straw man argument" went over my head. Sorry. Did you understand what I meant? I am simply reminding you of the counsel of the apostle Paul, who advised us that we should follow him only has he followed Christ."

A straw man argument is a logical fallacy, whereby one implies that the other has said something he has in fact not said; erecting an easily demolished argument that he then proceeds to easily demolish.

I never said we want to go back "only" to the Early Church Fathers.

You write:
"And so I do not intend to go blindly by what the "early church" (defined as the church from AD 100 to AD 300 or so) believed."

This is another straw man. I never said we should go "blindly" by what the "early church" believed.

Finally you say:
"You say that because of their proximity to the apostles, they are the best interpreters of what the apostles taught. That may or may not be so. The stand I must take is that if, with the help of the Holy Spirit and my own conscience I can be convinced that what they believed is what the apostles actually taught as revealed in Scripture... great.

If not... I am not obliged to follow them.

And the same principle applies to any teachers and churches down through the ages of the church from then till now."


Amen. Let there be peace between us.

Be well today,
Doug

 2011/10/10 16:21Profile
dietolive
Member



Joined: 2007/6/29
Posts: 342


 Re: Butters

Dear Butters-

The true gospel will seem soul-crushing when compared to the easy-going, easy-believing gospel in vogue today in the West.

Don't give up, keep looking unto Jesus; for He has promised to bear you up in His arms, and carry you all the way. We just need to surrender ourselves to His will, and believe.

Our mighty God is at work!

Can you feel Him working within? Don't give up, give in!

God bless you dear Butters,
Doug

 2011/10/10 16:30Profile





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