Doug said, "Only the apostles were promised the [EDIT: insert "unerring"] inspiration of the Spirit, not us. This promise was not given to us, but to the apostles. That is why we can trust the rest of the New Testament."

But this verse (Jn. 16.13) is not about a promise of infallible inspiration of the Scriptures. It's about being led into all the truth.

"Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come."

Yes, our Lord was speaking to the apostles when He said this. But the promise is for us all-- to be led into all the Truth, and into "things to come." The Holy Spirit in the earth is our One Guide into the Truth. When He is not given His rightful place we are quickly in the paths of error.

As to the "early fathers," they must be held to the same test we all are. If what they said lines up with Scripture (and in a lot of cases it does), then, Amen. If not... I am not obliged to follow them.

And so... I think it is a serious mistake to go to them as supposedly the ones who were the correct interpreters, in all cases, of what the apostles meant. Sure, a lot of what they said was good. Why so? Because it lines up with Scripture.

And of course we have a special love for those early ones, many of whom paid with their lives for their devotion to our Lord.

But what they said must be held to the test of Scripture. We have the privilege-- and the responsibility-- of being guided by the Holy Spirit Himself in our Christian walk. He, of course, will never lead us in ways that are contrary to Scripture.

...Doug, are you familiar with David Bercot? What you are asking us to espouse is Bercot's teaching (Will The Real Heretics Please Stand Up).

AD

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Allan Halton

Doug you wrote: "I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come." John 16:12-13


I think a fundamental misunderstanding of these verses undergirds the WHOLE basis for why there are hundreds of denominations today, and for why we still argue over whether or not to take this or that apostolic instruction literally today.

Getting John 16:13 wrong creates a HUGE problem for us. But how could we be so wrong about how to apply these verses? How can this be?

Question: Who was Jesus speaking to when He gave this promise? Answer: The apostles.

Question: Who must have been the recipient of these promises then? Answer: The apostles.

Why? Because they were going to establish the Church after Jesus went to Heaven. Here Jesus is promising the apostles that they would be given supernatural and infallible insight and understanding, after Jesus left them.

This promise was NOT given to other Christians then, nor unto us, today. Do you see what I am saying dear Brother? (When this "clicked" for me, it made all the difference...)

Only the apostles were promised the [EDIT: insert "unerring"] inspiration of the Spirit, not us. This promise was not given to us, but to the apostles. That is why we can trust the rest of the New Testament.

_________________

I too found this portion of what you wrote very unsettling. And I can not agree with you on...

God bless
maryjane

Hi ADisciple,

You wrote:
"Doug said, "Only the apostles were promised the [EDIT: insert "unerring"] inspiration of the Spirit, not us. This promise was not given to us, but to the apostles. That is why we can trust the rest of the New Testament."

But this verse (Jn. 16.13) is not about a promise of infallible inspiration of the Scriptures. It's about being led into all the truth."

I am not sure what different outcome is effected between promising someone "unerring inspiration" and promising someone "all truth." They come to one and the same thing.

You write:
"Yes, our Lord was speaking to the apostles when He said this. But the promise is for us all-- to be led into all the Truth, and into "things to come." The Holy Spirit in the earth is our One Guide into the Truth. When He is not given His rightful place we are quickly in the paths of error."

Dear Brother, (or Sister), may I ask you, How do you know for certain that this promise given to the apostles before there was a New Testament Bible, was also given to us today, after there is one?

You write:
"But what they said must be held to the test of Scripture. We have the privilege-- and the responsibility-- of being guided by the Holy Spirit Himself in our Christian walk. He, of course, will never lead us in ways that are contrary to Scripture."

Yes, of course, we must read the Scripture and compare all things to them, asking God in prayer to open our eyes and give us understanding. However, infallible understanding is not promised to us all; it is not promised to every individule believer. This should be obvious, if we consider the offices and gifts that the Holy Spirit is said to give to the Body.

I understand that what I am saying is "shocking" to some, (as our dear Sister also writes), but it is still true. Consoder this if you will, in the light of the Scriptures themselves. Would Paul, (infallibly inspiried), have written the following, if he believed that all individule believers were all already given the gift of infallibly knowing "all truth" for themselves?

"Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?

Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?" [No.] I Cor. 12:27-30

You finish:
"...Doug, are you familiar with David Bercot? What you are asking us to espouse is Bercot's teaching (Will The Real Heretics Please Stand Up)."

Yes, my friend, I am familiar with David Bercot, but he is not the only witness. You may be surprised to find out that John Wesley believed that we should highly esteem the united testimony of the Early Church Fathers, as well as even John Calvin, (though he only went back as far as the post-Nicean Church Father, Augustine.) There are many more...

My dear Brother or Sister: I am humbly asking you to consider the evidence before us: that our many modern doctrines and traditions are of recent invention; and that our current faith-traditions are at the most only a few hundred years old. I am asking the reader to be willing to look back to teachers in the Body from before the founding of his or her denominations.

I appreciate you taking the time to read and reason with me. That it is a sacrifice and labor of love is not lost upon me.

Be well in the Lord,
Doug

Dear Sisters:

I know what I was taught in Church was probably the same thing you were taught in Church. I understand therefore that the notion, (that we all aren't given, (at least potentially) unerring inspiration regarding "all truth"), is VERY unsettling, as well as shocking to you. It was to me as well, when I first considered the Scriptures in this regard.

However, as I wrote to ADisciple above, the Lord has blessed us with one another, each with varying ability and supernatural gifting. Not everyone is a teacher, nor did God intend everyone to be. God did intend that we stick together, and consider, and serve, and help, and learn from one another. This as individule members of the Body of Christ, the Church, both now and from the beginning.

Not everyone knows it all, but God does. He knows the hearts, and knows who wants His truth and are willing to obey it without reserve.

Thank you for reading and considering what I have told you. If you love me, please pray for me. I will do likewise for you dear Sisters.

Sincerely,
Doug

Greg

You said:

"We want to follow the Apostles Traditions. Also we want to follow the ways of those after the apostles. It is clear those traditions were not diluted or changed much till AD 300. To say all the churches became legalistic somehow right after the 12 apostles died is not right nor valid."

Can you honestly read through a work such as the 'Shepherd of Hermas' (a highly popular early work) and maintain that it is not at all legalistic and is in firm agreement with the New Testament?

Doug asked, "Dear Brother, (or Sister), may I ask you, How do you know for certain that this promise given to the apostles before there was a New Testament Bible, was also given to us today, after there is one?"

Because I read the verse in context. In these chapters (John 14,15, 16) Jesus is speaking to His disciples about His pending leaving them, and the coming of the Comforter, the Holy Spirit.

His promise is that the Holy Spirit will lead us into "all the truth."

Doug said, "Yes, of course, we must read the Scripture and compare all things to them, asking God in prayer to open our eyss and give us understanding. However, infallible understanding is not promised to us all; it is not promised to every individule believer. This should be obvious, if we consider the offices and gifts that the Holy Spirit is said to give to the Body."

What is promised to us all is that the Holy Spirit will lead each and every one of us "into all the Truth."

And to this end, our Lord has set in the church various ministries to help the saints along the way. They are for the profit of all-- to lead us into "all riches of the full assurance of understanding."

Doug said, "I am humbly asking you to consider the evidence before us: that our many modern doctrines and traditions are of recent invention; and that our current faith-traditions are at the most only a few hundred years old. I am asking the reader to being willing to look back to teachers in the Body from before the founding of his or her denominations.

Brother, (I am your brother) in increasing numbers, Christians in our day are recognizing that the denominational system is very wide of the mark as set forth by the Lord Jesus Christ Himself in the Scriptures. So, yes, we must earnestly seek to discover the Mark again, and press toward it.

If those in the early church were running well... great! But I'm not going to keep my eye on the good runners. I'm going to keep my eye on the Mark. Otherwise, how will I know when some of these other runners veered off the course and went down some other trail (which some in the early church did)? If I follow them, I'll end up in the ditch too.

You want me to go back to the early church. But let's go back to the beginning. Said Paul, "Follow me, AS I FOLLOW CHRIST." (Implying that if at some juncture he didn't follow Christ, don't follow him anymore.)

AD

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Allan Halton

by dietolive on 2011/10/10 6:35:47

Dear Sisters:

I know what I was taught in Church was probably the same thing you were taught in Church. I understand therefore that the notion, (that we all aren't given, (at least potentially) unerring inspiritation regarding "all truth"), is VERY unsettling, as well as shocking to you. It was to me as well, when I first considered the Scriptures in this regard.

However, as I wrote to ADisciple above, the Lord has blessed us with one another, each with varying ability and supernatural gifting. Not everyone is a teacher, nor did God intend everyone to be. God did intend that we stick together, and consider, and serve, and help, and learn from one another. This as individule members of the Body of Christ, the Church, both now and from the beginning.

Not everyone knows it all, but God does. He knows the hearts, and knows who wants His truth and are willing to obey it without reserve.

Thank you for reading and considering what I have told you. If you love me, please pray for me. I will do likewise for you dear Sisters.

Sincerely,
Doug

_____________

Doug

I appreciate your response and I will pray for you. I read through both your posts and am sharing them with my husband. Of course I agree that no one person knows everything, but at the same time I do believe that as a follower of CHRIST I can trust that HE will lead me in all HIS ways. JESUS will not lead me in a way I should not go. Now I also firmly believe we need other brothers and sisters daily around us to encourage us and even point things out in our lives that we might not see so that we can help each other walk in the LORD but all things must be tested to the WORD of GOD.
_______________________________
AD wrote:If those in the early church were running well... great! But I'm not going to keep my eye on the good runners. I'm going to keep my eye on the Mark. Otherwise, how will I know when some of these other runners veered off the course and went down some other trail (which some in the early church did)? If I follow them, I'll end up in the ditch too.

You want me to go back to the early church. But let's go back to the beginning. Said Paul, "Follow me, AS I FOLLOW CHRIST." (Implying that if at some juncture he didn't follow Christ, don't follow him anymore.)

AD
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This is it exactly. Amen!!


God Bless
maryjane

MaryJane: My respect and regards to your husband ma'am.

You wrote:
"Doug

I appreciate your response and I will pray for you. I read through both your posts and am sharing them with my husband. Of course I agree that no one person knows everything, but at the same time I do believe that as a follower of CHRIST I can trust that HE will lead me in all HIS ways. JESUS will not lead me in a way I should not go. Now I also firmly believe we need other brothers and sisters daily around us to encourage us and even point things out in our lives that we might not see so that we can help each other walk in the LORD but all things must be tested to the WORD of GOD."


Please pass along to him, if you will ma'am, that I agree with all that you have just written here. I too trust that God will never let me down or fail me.

I have only tried to reason that we all are not promised infallible understanding of the Scriptures, and therefore need the various offices and gifts of one another for this very reason.

Thank you for your prayers Sister.

May you and yours in well in the Lord,
Doug

Doug you wrote:Please pass along to him, if you will ma'am, that I agree with all that you have just written here. I too trust that God will never let me down or fail me.

________________

I will for sure pass this along also. I share everything with my husband as a sister in the LORD I feel it is vital that my he know what I am up to on the internet :) My darling husband is one of those brothers in CHRIST that I mentioned who GOD gave me to encourage and give correction when its needed. And both are often needed!

God bless you and keep you
Maryjane