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Discussion Forum : Articles and Sermons : Voices from the Early Church: Cyprian, to the Unmarried Sisters

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 Re:

"But now you reveal to me that Christians in circa 250 AD was not at all pristine"

Hi ArtB, can I suggest the book "The Pilgrim Church." It will give you good insight into early church history.

"BTW, The Mediterranean area were not the only places where Christianity existed. There were Christians throughout Africa and Asia that were not associated with the Church of Rome."

That is not correct, in fact Cyprian himself was from north Africa and reported to the Bishop of Rome...........brother Frank

 2011/10/6 1:04
dietolive
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Joined: 2007/6/29
Posts: 342


 Re:

Dear brother Frank-

You said:
"That is not correct, in fact Cyprian himself was from north Africa and reported to the Bishop of Rome...........brother Frank"

Having read your writings and having come to the conclusion that you are a spirit who desires the truth, (as it is in Jesus), at all costs, I offer the following for you to peruse.

Cyprian did in fact withstand and reject the authority of the bishop of Rome. This with regard to their opposing views on the re-baptism of schismatics, (they who were then entering the Church, who had previously already been baptized in a schismatic assembly.)

Ironically, it was Stephen, then the bishop of Rome, that held the milder view under debate. He said that schismatics did NOT need to be re-baptized, so long as they had been baptized according to the words of Scripture, and so long as they were found sincere in their faith.

It was Cyprian who held that a schismatic baptism was no baptism at all...

They then both broke off fellowship one with the other!

Now who was the schismatic!? One could say one, one could say the other, but I would say,

In this case: both!

Read the full story here:
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/hcc2.v.vii.xvi.html

And be well my friend,
Doug

 2011/10/7 17:38Profile
followthelamb
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Joined: 2010/12/7
Posts: 1527
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 Re: Voices from the Early Church: Cyprian, to the Unmarried Sisters

Going back to the original post for a moment, and though my spirit does not bear witness to every detail of Cyprian's interpretations, there is much good to be found in having a reference point for just how far we have fallen away from even the Scriptures of truth in regard to many such things including even modesty, etc.

If we speak, dress, and live just as sensuously and thoughtlessly as the world, delighting in all the same things this fallen world does...how then can we be shining the love and light of His holy Word and Spirit into the darkness of these days?

Are we beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord and being transformed into His image, as it is written?

Or we being seduced and distracted and lulled to sleep...beholding as in a mirror the spirit of this world and being conformed to it rather than Christ?

Below is another angle on what the ordinal post was touching on and it was written by Watchman Nee:

"There is, then, an ordered system, "the world," which is governed from behind the scenes by a ruler, Satan. . .Indeed, unless we look at the unseen powers behind the material things we may readily be deceived.

This consideration may help us to understand better the passage in 1 Peter 3 alluded to above. There the apostle sets "the outward adorning (cosmos) of plaiting the hair, and of wearing jewels of gold, or of putting on apparel" in deliberate contrast with "the incorruptible apparel of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price." By inference, therefore, the former are corrupt and worthless to God. We may or may not be ready at once to accept Peter'sevaluation, depending upon whether we see the true import of his words. Here is what he is implying. In the background behind these matters of wearing apparel and jewelry and make-up, there is a power at work for its own ends. Do notlet that power grip you.

What, we have to ask ourselves, is the motive that activates us in relation to these things? It may be nothing sensuous but altogether innocent, aiming by the use of tone and harmony and perfect matching merely to gain an effect that is aesthetically pleasing. There may be nothing intrinsically wrong in doing this; but do you and I see what we are touching here? We are touching that harmonious system behind the things seen, a system that is controlled by God's enemy. So let us be wary. . .

There is a spiritual force behind this world scene which, by means of "the things that are in the world," is seeking to enmesh men in its system. It is not merely against sin therefore that the saints of God need to be on their guard, but against the ruler of this world. God is building up his Church to its consummation in the universal reign of Christ. Simultainneously his rival is building up this world system to its vain climax in the reign of antichrist. How watchful we need to be lest at any time we be found helping Satan in the construction of that ill-fated kingdom."

Lord Jesus, revive us with the supply of your Holy Spirit of truth in these last days, so that we may awaken from our slumber and follow wherever your Spirit leads.


_________________
SI Moderator - Brandy Gordon

 2011/10/8 9:51Profile









 Re:

Hey brother Doug,

It is good to be acknowledged and someone who desires truth, thank you brother, I appreciate the warmth of that statement. Can I just expand on where I am coming from with Cyprian? Let me say first and foremost that I was born and raised a Catholic in a Catholic community in the west coast of Scotland. The whole of my education was Catholic. The cmmunity that I was raised in were " staunch," Catholics, much like Irish Catholics. At the age of 27 I encountered the Lord Jesus Christ who radically changed my world, delivering me from the ravages of alcohol and drugs, praise His holy name.

Cyprian was in every sense a Catholic. The sacramental system by 250ad was already firmly in place. When persecution came to north Africa, Carthage to be precise, Cyprian fled. Many refused to sacrifice to idols and were killed, many more relented or " lapsed." If you relented or lapsed, you were given a reciept by the authorities saving you from persecution, it was called a libellus.

The controvery came later. Would those who had lapsed be allowed re-entry into the " church," a church that Cyprian asserted that there was no salvation to be found outside of.( a believe that holds until this very day within the Catholic church)

It is important to know that the Roman government could care less whether you were " catholic," or otherwise and killed, during persecution, anyone with the title christian. What is interesting is that there were brothers and sisters, 1250 years before Luther and the reformation, who recognized and refused to bow the knee to the sacramental system of religion. This group was known as Novationsists, later followed by Donantists.

I think one of the key things that we learn of genuine Christianity down through the ages is that no matter what, they refused to deny their Lord and Saviour Jesus, and paid the ultimate price. This is why there was such an objection to those who relented or lapsed and took the " libellus.'

It seems obvious that there has always been two opposing groups within Christianity, broadly speaking, whether it be the wheat and the tares, or the sheep and the goats, or the ten virgins and so on. To think that the first several centuries was free from that is simply idealistic. We know that right from the beginning there were wolves in sheeps clothing. For three years Paul did not cease, night and day, to warn of the wolves that would come and scatter the flock, it was that important to Paul, he could see it coming. This was certainly the case in 250ad. And as in most cases, persecution would seperate what was real from what was religious. The real is always in the minority, always the remnant............brother Frank

 2011/10/8 10:44
dietolive
Member



Joined: 2007/6/29
Posts: 342


 Re:

Brother Frank -

Yes, I am familiar with the history. I see you are well-read.

Yes, that system, the anti-christ system, had its roots even in New Testament times, and I agree with you that it is diabolical.

I grew up in a Catholic community and attended Roman Catholic churches too. Boy, what they would make of me now! A full-fledged Protestant!

Be well Bro :O)
Doug

 2011/10/8 17:10Profile









 Re: Voices from the Early Church: Cyprian, to the Unmarried Sisters

Greg,
whats going on?
love, neil

 2011/10/8 19:53





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