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 jesus

 2011/9/7 6:31









 Re: Scriptures Only Applying to the Chosen People

This is an excerpt from a website I found.

http://www.truechristianity.com/christian/saved.htm

There is strong evidence that many Scriptures only speak to and apply to God's chosen people. This is the only way to explain many of the difficult questions and why many Scriptures appear to contradict. Some verses do not necessarily speak to everyone. Many verses contain words like "you", "us" and "we". People wrongly assume that these verses always apply to them. For example, some verses only speak to the Israelites in the Old Testament, or to the Apostles in the New Testament.

There were obvious measurable signs that God cared for his chosen people in the Scriptures. There were other groups of people where God did not work in their lives. They did not know God and they perished. Like today, many would not have heard the gospel.
We should not indicate to people that they cannot be saved if they seek God. If we seek God and try to obey him, we would have more chance of being chosen as one of his own,

but the choosing is up to God. He is the judge.

We still need to face the judgment, and there is every indication that it will be harsh.
Scriptures indicating that only certain people will be chosen are:

"Matthew 22:14 For many are called, but few [are] chosen. Matthew 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call His name Jesus, for he shall save HIS PEOPLE from their sins.

Luke 1:77 To give knowledge of salvation unto HIS PEOPLE by the remission of their sins.

John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and (that) your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Rom 9:10 And not only [this]; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, [even] by our father Isaac; 11 (For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) 12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Romans 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Mat 11:15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear." (This indicates that some people are born without ears and therefore cannot hear the word of God and therefore cannot be chosen)

"Matthew 13: 37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; 38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked [one]; 39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. 40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

John 17:9 ; I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. Matt 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles [peoples] heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ORDAINED to eternal life believed.

Matt 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

John 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose."

It is puzzling why God appeared to Paul so dramatically while he was disobeying God, while today people are seeking God and trying to obey him yet God does not appear to them. As a result they may become disgruntled and lost. Perhaps they are not meant to be the chosen people.

There is also a question about the matter that is linked to the forum at http://www.truechristianity.com/philosophy

Perhaps this can explain why many people are truly seeking God but cannot find him to the point that they are satisfied they have his spirit. It could be possible that some people will not be chosen and saved no matter how hard they try to seek and obey God. It appears as if Paul, the Apostles and the thief on the cross were in the right place at the right time and were chosen. I cannot explain why some people in Biblical times found God without any evidence they first tried hard to seek and obey him, while today some people spend enormous time trying to seek and obey God but they cannot find him. Luke 11:9, which says "seek, and ye shall find" may only apply and speak to the chosen people.

I don't particularly want to believe in the chosen people concept but there are so many verses that suggest it as indicated. Also evidence suggests that it is so. I am seeking to believe the truth even if it not pleasant. People can make the mistake of believing pleasant and hopeful things even if they are not true. They can believe in what feels nice instead of seeking the truth.

 2011/9/7 6:52









 Re:

For added emphasis


It is puzzling why God appeared to Paul so dramatically while he was disobeying God, while today people are seeking God and trying to obey him yet God does not appear to them. As a result they may become disgruntled and lost. Perhaps they are not meant to be the chosen people.

There is also a question about the matter that is linked to the forum at http://www.truechristianity.com/philosophy

Perhaps this can explain why many people are truly seeking God but cannot find him to the point that they are satisfied they have his spirit. It could be possible that some people will not be chosen and saved no matter how hard they try to seek and obey God. It appears as if Paul, the Apostles and the thief on the cross were in the right place at the right time and were chosen. I cannot explain why some people in Biblical times found God without any evidence they first tried hard to seek and obey him, while today some people spend enormous time trying to seek and obey God but they cannot find him. Luke 11:9, which says "seek, and ye shall find" may only apply and speak to the chosen people.

 2011/9/7 7:01
MaryJane
Member



Joined: 2006/7/31
Posts: 3057


 Re:

I'm not going to argue or debate scripture with you. I just wanted you to know I will be in prayer for you.

Matthew 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
Matthew 7:8 For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.

Like a small child I simply choose to believe God is who HE says HE is and does what HE says HE will. I believe my FATHER!!

God Bless
maryjane

 2011/9/7 7:44Profile
mguldner
Member



Joined: 2009/12/4
Posts: 1860
Kansas

 Re:

Not sure how old this is but I disagree with you. I really am neither Amerinian or Calvinist, I take an open stance on the matter.

We have all been offered Salvation, its our option to take it or leave it. We must come to God on His terms rather than ours. I agree no amount of prayer, bible study, etc will save us, its Only by Faith we are Saved not by works that any man should boast. Who is saved? those that have faith. And it is Faith that is counted as Righteousness. For me personally Calvinism makes little sense to me in this aspect dear brother, do you have assurance of Salvation? If no this is a error of doctrine, we can know we are saved according to 1 John 5:13 "I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God SO THAT you may KNOW that you have eternal life."

Do you believe Christ died for you? Do you believe He rose again? Do you by faith identify with this fact of Christ? IF so the 1 John was written so you can have confidence in approaching God.

Yet another flaw I see with Calvinism and the usual TULIP model is Limited Atonement, if God has specifically chosen people as you have stated then John 3:16 would read For God so loved his chosen people, that he sent his only begotten son that whosoever of his chosen people believeth in him shall not perish but have everlasting life. But it doesn't say His Chosen People but The World, Christ atoned for the Whole World, should they step into the cleansing blood of the lamb by faith.

I also seem to pick up frustation from you dear brother, God not answering you? Not getting anything out of your studies? We all go through seasons like this. As for those that seek and are never satisfied GOOD! I never want to be satisfied with where I am I want to press in deeper and harder and further as far as this ole bag of bones will take me all the way to Glory. Stop trying to hard and rest in the Lord brother, He loves you and He knows your heart and frustration, God is trying to teach you His way, submit to his discipline and don't despite it.


_________________
Matthew Guldner

 2011/9/7 7:58Profile
Vakugal
Member



Joined: 2006/2/7
Posts: 57
Bangalore, India

 Re: No Matter How Much you Pray, Repent, Plead, Obey If God Doesn't Choose You,

"For the last two years, I've been busting my butt to find out, talk to Him, understand Him, and salvation and everything but it's all meaningless, I made no progress in the last two years and all my effort for Christ in my life was worthless."
I have not visited this site for a long time and it so happened that I came across your post.
You are right in saying that unless God opens the door, unless He opens our eyes, we cannot see. But the good news is that He does want to open our eyes, He longs to help us and bring us to Him.
I want to share a few thoughts and pray that God will use it to encourage you.
I have gone in circles in my thoughts many times and I have tried to analyse as well and it has been a harrowing experience. Till I came to a point where, I was a total failure and I had to tell the Lord that I am in a mess and I need help and I cant do it on my own. I have repented a million times only to go and live the same way, that I have no courage to say "I repent" because I think it would just be a lie.
But the good thing was that I still new that Jesus was the only way and He died for me and that the Bible was God's word. This lead me to turn back to Him.
So it was like telling the Lord, I am at an end of my resource, I dont deserve to be saved, so if You in Your mercy wants to save me, You can. Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever, and immediately what came to my mind was that there was one, in the Gospel (I am not writing references here, but if you want I can come back and give you the references - so that you know it is from God's word.)who had possed the same question, if you want, you can heal me. And Jesus reply to Him was, that He did and He reached out and healed Him. So I knew in my heart that this was His answer to me as well.
What next ...
I said I cant look at tomorrow, I will start looking one day at a time ... as He had said, do not worry about tomorrow.
And I am going to start trusting His word in simple faith one day at a time.
So I am with you on this Codek and let us take this one step at a time, putting a simple child like faith on what Jesus has said. "Lord You said it and so I believ it."
It is true that at this point of time, you will forced to think of all those verses that will condemn you. But remember the Lord said in john 3:17 that He has not come to condemn but to save. So you can be sure that the condemnation is not from God.
God will start showing you the areas you have fallen, both with others as well as with God.
Acknowledge and confess your sin to God, where you feel you need to go and apologise go and do it, where you need to make restititution go do it. There may be cases that you may find hard to do, put it before God and God will give you the boldness, in some cases you may need to do across time, God will show you how to plan it out.
When we confess and repent, we can reach out to Him and say, yes Lord I believe that you died for my sins and I receive the forgiveness that you bought for me.
We need to learn to stand on His word and not on our feelings or reason. We can ask the Lord to teach us this ... again in simple faith because He said if we ask Him, He will do it.
Have this attitude in yourself as the early disciples. When Jesus asked them if they too wanted to leave Him, they said where else can we go, You have the words of eternal life. Cling to Him in simple trust like a babe.
And tell the Lord, I want to enter into that personal relationship with You.
Our greatest hope is that Jesus came to save sinners and so, where as our failures would have brought us low, we now see that it is for people like us, that Jesus has come.
I want to point you to a book that will help you in establishing the fundamentals of the Christian faith - http://www.cfcindia.com/web/mainpages/book_window.php?book=a_good_foundation
Coming back to my small story :-) .... I started trusting the Lord one step at a time and I started seeing that I was growing in the Lord. But then again there were times that the Lord was real and times He was not. I had been greatly challenged by Enoch who had walked with God, and I was telling myself, if Enoch in the OT could walk with God, then I too in the NT should be able to. I asked the Lord, is it possible that He can be as real to me as the people I see around. My prayer was, Lord I want you to be more real. In my heart the thought came, "I can be either real or not real ... there is no 'more' real." I changed my prayer and said, Lord I want you to be real in my life. The immediate word that came in my heart was, "I am with you till the end of age." and I was able to accept that fact in all simplicity and my eyes were opened to the continued presence of God. (Today I seem to have drifted form there and I belive together with you He wants to bring me back to that place once again.)
In simple faith taking Him at His word let go ahead and get hold of Him.

 2011/9/7 8:04Profile
luke673
Member



Joined: 2011/8/5
Posts: 23
Tennessee

 Re:

I beleive that we all have freedom of choice. We choose to except Christ or not to. If we except him it has to come from our heart, true repentance comes from the heart, the inward man, the soul.

One question. If Christ only chooses certain people and they are the only ones saved then why would he have to establish the great commission to send those souls out to spread the gospel, it had to be a choice of theres if they beleived or not. its all about freedom of choice. Does God know who will accept him or not? Sure he does since the beginning of time.He is Omniscience he knows all.


Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
(KJV)

It takes time to grow and feel the Lord, to listen to his voice.

Prayers going up for you dont give up.

God Bless


_________________
Luke L.

 2011/9/7 8:05Profile
enid
Member



Joined: 2006/5/22
Posts: 2669
Nottingham, England

 Re:

Codek,
You're right. No one can assure you of your salvation but God Himself.

Romans 8v9, '...now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.'

Only you know if God's Holy Spirit resides in you. This is because God is the One 'who has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.', 2 Cor 1v22.

Let's hope this thread does not degenerate into futile debate, but rather for edification and the hope of God in your life.

Take care.

 2011/9/7 8:24Profile









 Re:

 2011/9/7 8:33









 Re:

Please do not turn this into an arminianism vs calvisim debate. Basically both sides have their points and there are verses that support both.

The point of this post is that I'm tried everything and I've come to the conclusion that God doesn't want me saved because I've exhausted all my options, i mean EVERYTHING AND YET GOD IS STILL SILENT. This is not a season for me. GOD WAS ALWAYS SILENT IN MY LIFE. HE NEVER REALLY SAID ANYTHING, NEVER RESPONDED, YET I PAID DEARLY FOR TRYING TO FOLLOW GOD.

 2011/9/7 8:34





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