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PaulFaculin
Member



Joined: 2011/4/6
Posts: 32
Quezon City, Philippines

 Re:

Thank you guys for your wonderful replies, wisdom, encouragement and even prayers! ^_^

@Bro. Mikey2

I understand and appreciate your point Brother. But I believe as people who fear God and desires to honor Him and His Word, we should really take Heb 13:17 literally. I know it's very hard to find a godly shepherds nowadays, But I believe God could lead us, by His grace, to those real God appointed elders for us. And I don't mean that we should blindly submit to them and let them dictate our walk, but rather we should be led by the Spirit and still ask for their wisdom as well. I think real God appointed elders had been refined by God through their experiences and through their very walk with God. Also the Lord is showing me and those who has longer and deeper walk with him that there were many Christians who were very gifted and on fire for God yet had shipwrecked their faith and missed the high call of God through lack of submission to God appointed authorities. Many have been blinded by spiritual pride that they can't handle corrections and that everything should be done their way. You could see that through the lives of many heretics, false prophets and even atheists here in the Philippines. They all started with great passion and obvious spiritual giftings' yet they want no one to check and balance their lives and thus they end up rebellious and independent from God as well. I believe those people should have done great things for the Lord through the graces in their lives yet missed it through pride. But still yes, we should not just be submitting to anyone because of his title or position.

 2011/9/1 16:32Profile
PaulFaculin
Member



Joined: 2011/4/6
Posts: 32
Quezon City, Philippines

 Re:

Oracio, yes that's one my struggle as well. Though I agree mainly with the stands of my Church regarding the calling and purposes of the Church for these last days. Yet I don't agree when it comes on 'sinner's prayer', following up the sinner with non-gospel bible study, in which they don't need yet because they are not yet converted, all of those that we typically see as gosple hindrance practices. I just pray that I could lead them step by step out from those practices yet my age is sometimes hindrance and probably many times the unpopular things aren't easy to promote. I am dreaming of a Church that has the same solid teaching as them balanced with solid and sound outreach approach.

 2011/9/1 16:43Profile
mikey2
Member



Joined: 2011/5/5
Posts: 112


 Re:

Quote:
While there is some obvious truth in what you say it seems you are missing a great part of the puzzle in my humble opinion. For example, you stated,
"Peter submitted to truth! He submitted to the Spirit of God that he discerned speaking through Paul. He knew what Paul was speaking came from the Lord" Exactly what scripture passages are you gleaning this from? I see nothing in the text that supports this opinion at all.



Peter is not going to submit to what Paul is saying just because Paul is saying it. He recognized it was Truth and coming from the Spirit of God.

Quote:
You state several times , in one form or another, that, "We always and ever do, submit to the Spirit of God that we discern is in a man, woman or child". While I would pray this to be so...it rarely is.



Ok, let me be clearer, “We always and ever SHOULD, submit to the Spirit of God that we discern is in a man, woman or child")

Quote:
The problem with what you are communicating is that folks rarely (as in virtually never) can do that when it is something they disagree with. I have found fewer Christians than I have fingers in 30 years that will "discern the voice of God" in something or someone they disagree with. If you doubt that try to get those on these boards to agree with submitting to Rick Joyner... as an example. They disagree with some theology so most will brand him as a "non christian heretic". I have also seen most Arminians in general rebelled at because they simply do not find the 5 points of Calvinism to be Biblically solid. This is simply an example. One can also read from Pauls' epistles that even the believers in churches he started were often in rebellion and not submitting to him. His authority was often challenged in his absence. I am not arguing for or against Joyner or Calvinism..just examples. However, as you can imagine that will get you nowhere fast.



Look, iff it is not from God, you don’t submit to it. I respect some Calvinists but do not adhere to all their teachings. I respect some Arminians, but do not adhere to all their teachings. I would never put myself under any authority at IHOP. I flat out don’t agree with them. I will never put myself under any leadership that the Spirit of God in me does not seem to sanction or that goes against His Word. There is never anyone between me and Jesus. I do not need any other mediator and the wrong kind of submission today, creates Mediators between man and God.)

Quote:
It is not submission when it is something we want to do. or agree with. That is easy. How about when you are confronted with something you do NOT agree with or want to do. It is only true submission when we crucify our desire, put our belief as secondary, and do the thing we do not want to do. Jesus in Gathsemane is of course the prime example. He said he did not want to endure the road of the cross. However... regardless of what He wanted... He would submit to the Father and do what the Father wanted... not what He wanted. "Let this cup pass from me"..."not my will but thine be done".



Jesus was submitting to the right person. Remember, the context. We are talking about WHO to submit to.
It is always true submission when God says submit. You can crucify your desire and still be wrongly submitted. Jesus was always correctly submitted to His Father. He would never submit to man. That example of yours is not in context to what we are talking about because it is not like Jesus is submitted to the wrong person, but praise God he is at least submitted to someone. No, that is wrong.

Quote:
It is also hard to accept what you stated about Peter. He preached the message on Pentecost 20 years prior to Galatia that ,"the promise was to your children...those far off...as many as the Lord our God shall call". This does not even take into account the Cornelius house event and Peter's vision of the unclean animals in the sheet. Paul even states that Peter's actions were for fear of the Jews.



Years in the Lord and who you are don’t matter if you preach a false gospel. Fortunately for Peter, the Holy Spirit, through Paul, corrected him and Peter recognized this was from the Lord and received the Lord’s correction.

Quote:
It is fair to say that rebellion to God's ordained authorities CAN BE rebellion at God Himself. I am sure you are aware of the account of Israel seeking a king in 1 Samuel 8. It states, "6 But when they said, “Give us a king to lead us,” this displeased Samuel; so he prayed to the LORD. 7 And the LORD told him: “Listen to all that the people are saying to you; it is not you they have rejected, but they have rejected me as their king".



I have never advocated rebellion to God’s ordained authorities. The key is figuring out who are ordained by God and now ordained by themeselves or other men.

David knew that Saul was still ordained by God and the Holy Spirit will witness to your spirit who is ordained by God or not. And just because Saul was ordained by God did not necessarily mean that David had to stay. Just that David should not touch God's annointed and David knew this so he took off. Saul was trying to kill him anyway. I will not sit under a Saul. David chose not to sit under a Saul. A Saul will only seek to destroy a man of the Spirit anyway as he sought to destroy David. David had no choice but to run rather than fight back at God’s anointed. We are free to flee those who walk after the flesh.

Quote:
Again, it CAN be. Not that it necessarily IS. There, to me, is the balance.

To take the other side and balance things out more to your statements I would submit the events with the apostles. They were beaten and told to no longer preach in the name of Jesus. In this case they rebelled at the authorities... but did so because to maintain submission to God was the greater requirement. In essence to stay submitted to God they of necessity HAD TO rebel at the leadership of the Jewish Council.



This statement is out of context. I am talking about Spiritual leaders leading God’s people, not persecution. We ought always to obey God rather than man.

Quote:
As you can see I agree with much of what you shared. It does seem to me that when compared to the balance of scripture you are painting with far too broad a brush. In conclusion... let me share a brief outline that I use to determine how to respond to this issue when it happens on a practical real life situation-

I am submitted to God. I do this in 3 levels.

1. I am submitted to God
2. I generally know Him and Hs will by the Word and submit to what is revealed there.
3. I submit to God's ordained structure of ministry leadership on the earth.

I follow this as long as the ordained leadership does not try to make me violate the Word or my relationship with Him. If that ever happens (and it has) then I must rebel at the lower authority and submit myself to the higher, namely God and His clearly revealed Word.



Then we are in agreement.

Quote:
There are apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers given as gifts to the church to equip saints until we are all built up in faith, unity, and the knowledge of God. If a man demonstrates the fruit and gifts of a Biblical apostle, prophet, pastor, teacher, or evangelist I will recognize them as such. I have no problem submitting to their ministry offices in the proper context. I will continue to do so unless they violate the higher authority of Gods Word. That would be Biblical submission. Submit to leadership, each other, unless it violates the higher authority of Gods Word, then we are obligated to "Obey God rather than man".



No disagreement there. Just remember, not everyone that calls themselves apostles, prophets, evangelist, etc., necessarily are. We can and should test the spirits.

Quote:
Of course the problem is that many christians get their self in a snit over this or that little unimportant issue and claim "God said to rebel at ... whoever" and in fact God said no such thing. This is merely a ruse to cover over a rebellious heart that is at its core prideful and unwilling to submit itself to anyone. This is because their heart (or they) are top dog and NO ONE is telling them anything they don't want to hear and certainly not getting them to do anything they do not want to do. That is NOT submission.



I am sure you are right in some cases but I would be careful about painting a broad brush about everyone that decides to pull out of someone’s “leadership”.

Quote:
Again, submission is only proven or verified when we are willing to do something we do not want to or are not in full agreement with. Otherwise, we are still just doing what we want to.



That may prove that you can be submissive, but we are not talking about how to prove you are submissive. We are talking about who we should be submitting to. It proves nothing that you can be submissive to someone not ordained of God except that you are deceived. And that is how people are forced to submit, by telling them that unless you submit to me, you are rebellious, so to prove that you love God and His servants you need to submit to me. Sorry. You can take a flying leap in the lake (not you Solomon), I am not submitting to you. Anyone that would say anything like that to a sheep, is not from God anyway. God’s ministers are marked by humility, and a spirit of brokenness, serving not taking and not brazenly arrogant and inflated with their own self-importance.

Alas, we spend too much time obsessing about which man to submit to, instead of working on submitting to the Holy Spirit.

Hope you see where I am coming from, now. The context is Spiritual leaders, not persecution, not civil authorities, not parents and children or husbands and wives. Those are altogether another topic with their own individual details. I see a lot of abuse in those relationships, too.

I have very close and spiritually mature brothers in Christ that I fellowship with, but we don't tell each other what to do. So, now, what is your definition of submission? Enjoying the give and take, Solomon.

Mike

 2011/9/1 17:11Profile
mikey2
Member



Joined: 2011/5/5
Posts: 112


 Re:

Paul,

First and foremost you have a Shepherd. Most people forget this fact, because most of today's teaching is that you have to find someone to put yourself under. That teaching is not unusual (it is like a recruitment mantra) since there are many "christian" organizations that need their pews occupied and usually need to increase headcount in order to take in more tithes to meet their budget and do "greater things" for God, etc, etc, etc.

1Pe 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

What most people need are brothers that know how to be brothers. These brothers will have giftings of teaching, shepherding, counseling, etc. Brothers with God's heart make wonderful shepherds and we really should all be shepherding one another.

Look to your Great Shepherd and trust him to bring you to brothers that will not lord over you.

Mike

 2011/9/1 17:19Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

mikey2 wrote:
"Look, iff it is not from God, you don’t submit to it. I respect some Calvinists but do not adhere to all their teachings. I respect some Arminians, but do not adhere to all their teachings. I would never put myself under any authority at IHOP. I flat out don’t agree with them. I will never put myself under any leadership that the Spirit of God in me does not seem to sanction or that goes against His Word. There is never anyone between me and Jesus. I do not need any other mediator and the wrong kind of submission today, creates Mediators between man and God.)"

Amen. I believe that this type of discernment is much needed in the Church these days. I believe that if more believers would realize these things there would be more freedom to truly submit to and serve Jesus Christ and get the gospel out to the lost.

Let me explain a little. If I go to a church where the leadership is opposed to the preaching of the biblical gospel in the open air out on the streets, and if they tell me they don't want me to continue evangelizing the way I do, that would let me know immediately that I must leave that church, for I must obey God rather than men. And believe me, sadly there are many protestant evangelical churches that would oppose the preaching of the biblical gospel on the streets. Many have become too seeker-sensitive and preach a watered-down gospel.


Many Christians are taught that in order to serve and submit to Christ they must serve in a local church in some way. It may be serving in the children's ministry, ushering, cleaning, etc.( I'm not putting down those types of ministries). That then creates a mindset that the main place we should worry about serving the Lord at is in our local church during church services. That in turn hinders believers from being exhorted and encouraged to go out into the highways and byways to seek and save that which is lost or minister to the poor and needy in their community.

This also applies to the area of giving to the Lord's work. We are taught that the main place we need to worry about giving to is our local church, while ministry to widows and orphans is neglected. This indeed is spiritual ecclesiastical bondage.



_________________
Oracio

 2011/9/1 18:46Profile
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2007
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Brothers (sister): I am a little bit amazed that this topic is so polar in opinion and scriptural interpretation, but I am thankful that as brothers in Christ we can discuss the differences of opinion and remain in the love of God. Just a few observations from my perspective.

Ginny's post is a good one. It is important in my opinion that we look at the scriptures closely. The leadership to whom the writer of Hebrews refers are a plurality of eldership. They were a group of men who were chosen for their spiritual maturity and wisdom. They were the men referred to as bishops and elders Paul's letters, the two terms being interchangeable and both referring to those who were charged with oversight of the body. Their function was much different from the function of the modern American senior pastor or the modern American deacon board. They were ordained as they exhibited spiritual leadership and as this calling was recognized by existing leadership, primarily apostles but also including existing eldership.

We are told in Hebrews to do three things as we relate to this leadership.
1) Remember them. This refers to being mindful of them and specifically of their faith and behavior or conversation. In other words, take seriously the gifting that God has placed in these men. Do not forget it and follow them as they follow Christ.
2) Obey them, submitting yourself to them. First the term for obey is used primarily of trusting in, being persuaded of, and having confidence in. I am to recognize the men that God has gifted to oversee the body and put my confidence and trust in their leadership. It is this trust and confidence that allows me to obey them. This is in the context of following their lead and example as they follow Christ. It is a submission based upon the confidence we have in them as they follow Christ. It is not a corporate top down leadership model and it is not obedience in the sense of blindly following a man's orders.
3) Salute them and the rest of the brethren. A salutation is an extension of good will and fellowship. In this case an invitation to intimate relationship and mutual friendship and brotherhood.

I see no scriptural evidence or precedence for the concepts of shepherding or covering or "being under so and so" as they are put forth in the modern church. What I do see is a respectful and trusting submission to the elders in Christ who are more mature and who have been given the responsibility for oversight of the rest of the body.

Let me give an example that might make the point. I am now entering a phase of my life and walk with the Lord where I am being considered and elder in the city. Men come to me at times for counsel and look at me as a mature man of God in the community. Suppose I see a younger brother in the Lord who is straying in some way and I go to him and talk with him about it. I may give him counsel that he needs to do a particular thing and stop doing another thing. He has the choice to obey my counsel or to shun it. If he respects me and desires to follow Christ with his whole heart he will obey my counsel. But he may not obey, and most likely it will lead to bad consequences in his life. A rebellious heart that continually spurns such council could be at some point subject to the discipline outlined in 1 and 2 Corinthian. But the point is that it is my walk with God and my maturity in the Lord that warrants and even invites the obedience. But I should also be open to a younger brother coming to me and in the Spirit of Christ in love telling me when he sees inconsistencies in my own life. We are to be submitted the one to another.


_________________
Travis

 2011/9/1 18:46Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

twayneb, great exegesis and example. That is biblical submission. I know from experience that it can be a great blessing. Sadly most of the submission we hear taught or see today is not modeled that way but is unbiblical.

Some of the cults of today apply close scrutiny to the personal lives of their members. They check in on them daily, even on their bank accounts to see if they are spending their money properly. They tell there members where and where not to go. And I'm sure we would all have issues with that. But many of us are not too far from allowing ourselves to have that type of close scrutiny applied to our personal lives, all in the name of "submission".


_________________
Oracio

 2011/9/1 19:01Profile
mikey2
Member



Joined: 2011/5/5
Posts: 112


 Re:

twayne and Oracio

no disagreement at all with you guys. Right on.

Also, I might add, that everything we are talking about is a result of relationship.

And yes, brothers should be able to speak into each other's lives but you can only do this if you have relationship, not membership.

Mike

 2011/9/1 19:23Profile
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2007
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Mike: You are so right brother. It is all built upon relationship. So often a weekly church service is the only fellowship with the body that Christians experience. Often this takes the form of a performance or a one stop filling station. There is little real relationship. The service has taken the place of body life in so many cases. But we are called to a life of interconnectedness, interdependency, mutual submission, and intimacy with one another.


_________________
Travis

 2011/9/1 19:38Profile





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