| Re: |
Our opinions dont matter... only what is written in scripture.
| 2011/8/30 14:28|
| Re: |
Here is an account of the Revival conference that we had in Greenock, Scotland a few years ago by one of our moderators her on SI. http://scottishwarriors.wordpress.com/2008/12/03/a-genuine-outpouring-in-greenock-the-beginnings-of-revival/
I myself, as a classic pentecostal ( hate names) attended a Calvary Baptist College back in 2000. I believe that the Lord directed me there for several different reasons. It definately was not a friendly enviroment to " those of the tongue speaking persuasion." (Their phrase) I found that out very quickly. One of the required classes was Survey of theology. Part of that class involved the schools statement of faith. You had to go through it point by point and say yeah or nay and then give your explanation. Just a few days after taking that part of the test, I was summoned to the dean of students office. I prayed much about it. I could definately feel the Holy Spirit as I entered his office. He was extremly uncomfortable as he explained to me that they just could not accept those who spoke in tongues at this college. I felt the Lord speak through me as I replied. I told him that if he found this issue to be of such magnitude that he would have to break fellwoship with me, a brother in Christ, and have me leave the college then that would be fine. I told him that I would just thank God for what I had learned and who I had met and move on. Well, it turns out he just could not do it. I remained in the school for three more semesters. I had a wonderful time. When I left, I left with sadness because I met men who loved the word of God very much, but because of their theological bent, their pre-conceived notions, could not accept that the sign gifts were still for today. All around the campus there was one sign up "Context is king." The sad irony was that their Scripture, on which they based their whole believe on tongues and other sign gifts had ceased, was 1 Cor 13:10. Because of this one text, taken out of context, they had come up with a pre-text, the very thing they were constantly warning student that they must avoid at all cost. Yes, I left sad because I knew that if the best of these men would join with the best of the pentecostals and create a Bapticostal, then we would have the most powerful force on the earth. Spirit and Truth............brother Frank
| 2011/8/30 15:19|
| Re: What is a "Bapticostal" to do when the call to ministry comes?|
I have a friend who is a pastor in a pentecostal denomination, holds a graduate degree from Fuller, and lives in Hawaii. He is very balanced, really good teacher. If you're interested in sharing your dreams with someone with some pastoral experience, is probably not far from you theologically, and has the academic cred you're aiming to start achieving, I'd be very happy to pass along his contact info.
| 2011/8/30 15:19||Profile|
| Re: Pandarus|
Brother I think you night be better served taking your New Testament and doing what Lisa suggested. Going to the University of. Bended Knee. I believe John Bunyon did this. His only text book was the Bible. His only teacher the Holy Spirit. John Owen, one of the foremost theologs of his day and a contemporary of Bunyon, was to have remarked that he woukd have traded his education to have the preaching ability of Bunyon. Remember Peter and John. They were unschooled, ordinary men. Yet they had been with Jesus.
The time you spend in seminary or Bible school could be better spent in building your relationship with Jesus. Have you ever read The Heavenly Man. This is the story of a peasant farmer God raised up in China. This man had no formal education yet God's hand was on him. The Lord used him in mighty ways to advance his kingdom purposes.
Brother I believe Bible schools and seminaries are man made. They produce professional clergy and kill the spirit. I have heard too many heart breaking stories of saints who went to such. They either came out devoid of spirit or cynical. Assuming.g they were not arrogant with theological knowledge.
I encourage you. Preserve your heart. That is what God wants. Work on your relationship with Jesus Immerse yourself in the word and prayer. If you do this you will be a far more effective servant of God. As Bunyon said 'Pray and read and read and pray. For a little from God is better than a whole lot from men.
Submitted in Christ,
| 2011/8/30 15:22|
| Re: |
Look at Spurgeon... he was reviled for not having a formal education, and now they call him the Prince Of Preachers.
| 2011/8/30 15:59|
| Re: Krispy|
Bro this is a second. I agree with your post. This is getting unsettling.
| 2011/8/30 17:03|
Brothers (and sisters),
Thanks for all your kind and thoughtful advice. This response is meant in love (difficult sometimes with just typed words I know). Perhaps I need to make myself clear. I use the label "Bapticostal" because like it or not we are human and use language to communicate. It is often best to use terms that most people understand to mean a similar thing. Whether we like it or not, this is the case. I would love to simply refer to Christianity but the reality is whether we like it or not we live in a presently divided church. But we are all children of our Saviour if we are but born again. And there are born again true sons and daughters in everything from the most conservative catholic congregation to the most fringe charismatic congregation.
It is also the number one cause of problems in the job that I do.
So, for those that may be slightly hung up on terms, let me explain:
I take the bible literally. I believe it fundamentally. I take God at his word. When God says he made the universe in 6 days, I believe he means six days. I do not try to perform theological gymnastics to try to get the Word to fit my position.
When the Word challenges my beliefs, the Word wins out. Everytime. Even when it's a hard learning. When God says He will return physically to rule a physical Kingdom for a thousand years, I take him at his Word. In simplicity. Now before you get carried away with exceptions, there are obviously some metaphors in the bible - of course!
The truth of the Word of God - in context as an earlier brother said - is where my heart is. I believe the Baptists share this love for the word except in the area where - again as an earlier brother said - it would appear they need to perform theological gymnastics to justify their position on the cessation of the Gifts.
This is where the Pentecostals excel. They believe the Word in total. But I believe sometimes they too take things out of context and there are skewed focusses. Such as Baptism in the Holy Ghost havng be accompanied by speaking of tongues.
But look, all this is getting caught up in semantics. The focus is on the service and love of others and I feel this can best be achieved for me in a church that loves and believes the bible in totality and simplicity (not that there aren't some advanced and wonderful treasures lying just beneath). There are two things we are called to do. Conversion AND Discipling.
I could not have put it better than Appolus. His position is just about identical to mine. The power of the truth and simplicity of the Word of God empowered by the Gifts and outpouring of the Holy Ghost. I am excited just thinking about it.
Love, Joy and Grace BUT WITH Truth, Holiness and the Fear of God!
Now to Bible College. To be honest I've detested the concept for many of the reasons many of you have mentioned. I wish to remain humble and not develop a superiority complex or pretentiousness that is often the case of seminary graduates. I am in my early thirties and have experienced life (unfortunately in the worldly sense) so I am not embarking on this totally with my eyes closed and rose-coloured glasses on.
Our King has shown me a few things. Well may it be said that the the Apostles did not attend bible college and were simple men but I think a three year degree with the Maker himself might qualify, don't you?
Paul Himself was a "Pharisee of Pharisees" and the Holy Ghost used his learning. Jesus commands us yes, to go into the world. But what does he say once the lost are born again? To TEACH them to obey EVERYTHING he has commanded.
I do see the snideness displayed by some seminary graduates toward non-graduates and it disgusts me. I know Bible College will be no walk in the park and I am not embarking on the journey with a goal to becoming the Pastor of a church; but to be equipped to serve my Master in any which way whatsoever he commands.
In fact, if I want to serve my Master with my whole life, how can I do anything BUT prepare myself the best way he shows me? Remember, BEFORE Christ sent the disciples, he first PREPARED them.
And whilst there are many examples of those used mightily by God without ever having attended bible school - and even those saying they wish they hadn't; equally there are many used mightily by God who have been - and are thankful for having done so.
Finally, and most importantly, all these things must be underpinned by a daily relationship with our Saviour that begins in honesty & humility on our behalf, and MOST CERTAINLY on our knees. Love and adoration for our Creator, tempered with the Fear of God and directed towards bringing him Glory, Honour and Obedience.
My my, I have waffled, please forgive me. And bless you all.
Nick van der Net
| 2011/8/30 19:38||Profile|
| Re: |
I very much like your response and explanation of where you are theologically. I guess I would hold to the same postion as you in these matters. I like what you said here:
"When the Word challenges my beliefs, the Word wins out. Everytime". Amen!
I was just having a bit of fun with the 'Bapticostal' title (not at all having a dig) and trying to make the point that most (mainstream) factions have both enlightenment and blindness to various truths, so we take that from each which we see as 'biblical'.
BTW I attend an independant Baptist Church in the UK, which is in most ways very biblical and the folk there do love the Lord and have a desire to outreach and glorify God. However we differ on a few points such as the gifts of the Spirit (I believe they are for today, they don't) and some other doctrines. However I have not found it an issue and I am not there to bring my agenda (which I think is a main point), but to work together in the Lord on our common relationship with our Lord Jesus. It does mean I cannot be 'a member' as I can't sign up to their doctrinal statement, but I don't agree with 'church membership' anyway!
Too many of us want to go in somewhere and insist on confronting others with points of disagreement, rather than focusing on the much larger portion of things we agree on and can have fellowship with. When you think about it, it is a bit silly to go to a church or college that you know holds a certain position that you disagree with and then make a point of falling out about it. Better not to go there in the first place. That said, I think we can if we have the right spirit be a source of truth in the right way for these institutions to be challanged on their traditions.
| 2011/8/31 10:08||Profile|
| Re: |
Amen Dave! I attended an Assemblies of God school to become a pastor, after a while I learned what they actually believed and where they put emphasis and eventually buttheads with the Senior pastor when I inquired or disagreed with some of their doctrines one being about tithing.
After a while I was asked to leave the church and set down from leadership which I was much oblidged to do because I had no desire to cause devision in the church. I then went to a baptist church that has a Nondenominational pastor, so for the most part he is open minded in his thinking and is okay with different areas of thought on the scriptures as long as you can show him in the Word and defend your belief From the Word.
I personally am not baptist but I have my doctrines they have that I agree with while at the same time I am not pentecostal but I believe the Gifts of the Spirit are for today. And even another layer folds behind that I am not pretrib in doctrine but Posttrib. Ultimately I found that titles are handy at times but sometimes they are largely misleading and it is better to sit down with a man and talk about his and your beliefs, to never judge and assume you know what they believe based simply off the title.
| 2011/8/31 10:40||Profile|
| Re: |
You have certainly gotten plenty of input from others on what you should do with your life. Makes me chuckle.
The schools you mentioned are good choices. The one mentioned by kingjimmy is one I also personally know is a good option. Obviously you seem willing and able to attend a school out of your native country. That certainly opens up the options for you!
Do not be overly concerned with the exact knit picky theology of a school. Find the best one you can where you are also able to comfortably study considering their beliefs.... whether you currently agree with all of them or not. I attended Southern Baptist, Independent Charismatic, and Assemblies of God colleges/universities. I learned much at each one and picked up a couple of degrees along the way. I am a much more balanced person with the ability to minister more effectively in a wide variety of areas because of it. In fact I have actually held credentials with all of those groups at one time during the past 25+ years of ministry.
Some schools are focused on imparting knowledge, some on practical ministry skills, and even a few on developing a deeper devotional life. All of those are good and proper. However, it is YOU that determines what you get out of it. Never assume the person,or professor, is wrong just because you disagree with them. They might be, you might be, you may both be. However, if you or I determine just to "defend this position and belief" then we never grow any more in God or the knowledge of Him. We think just because it is our belief it must be right! You will see that a great deal of that on the boards here.. unfortunately it is very immature. Rise above that. It will pay you great dividends!
I commend your maturity in seeing balance. Not many posses that. Just read the posts on the forums and it will be all to evident! Just be a blessing to people..wherever they are at theologically. Preach Gods love, calls to repentance, the cross, becoming empowered by the Holy Spirit, loving your neighbor, and major on the majors.
I would also recommend a couple of resources that may be a blessing to you given the perspective you are at theologically.
1. The writings of Jack Deere. He was associate professor of Old Testament at Dallas Seminary, a bastion of cessationism. In the late 1980s, he abandoned his earlier theological position, announcing that he had experienced the charismatic gifts for himself. As Ravenhill said,,"A man with an experience is never at the mercy of a man with an argument". I think you will find his writings to be exemplary in theological thought and content as well as fired by the passion of having experienced the moving of the Holy Spirit for himself. In particular you may enjoy the books- Surprised By The Power Of The Spirt- and- Surprised By The Voice Of God-. They can be purchase as a 2 in 1 book fairly reasonably. It is right where you are I think.
2. The audio sermon section here on Sermon Index. Look up Duncan Campbell. He was a Calvinist Presbyterian that God used mightily in the Hebrides revival. He has perhaps 6-8 messages specifically on how the empowerment and baptism in the Holy Spirit were the key to that outpouring. They will refresh and fire your soul. Also give a listen to his testimony and the 2 part series "When God Stepped Down".
3. The Vineyard Calvinist group. I can hear the howling of a witch hunt beginning even as I type this.:-) Simply ignore the screaming mob as they descend upon this thread pitchforks in hand.:-). I have several pastor friends that are full 5 point Calvinists that have also experienced the baptism in the Holy Spirit. They are often used in the gifts of the Spirit as well. They have a loose network that enables them to receive mutual encouragement for their perspective ministries from each other. It also allows them a place to ask questions, bounce ideas off each other, and receive input about how their ministries may be able to help and learn from each other. If you are interested I can connect you. Just let me know.
Hopefully some of the information and ideas here are helpful to you. It is an exciting time in your life!
| 2011/8/31 12:21||Profile|