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 Re: Experience vs. Doctrine in Relationship with Christ

Flame of fire your post was titled "Experience vs. Doctrine in Relationship with Christ". Here's a real life example of what you're talking about. One night at a Bible study I was discussing a verse in I John 3 with another brother. It wasn't I John 3:6, but I John 3:9. It says:

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Well, I was discussing this verse with a brother and I was confused by it because I did in fact have a habitual sin in my life. This other brother rather arrogantly quoted I John 3:9 to say that my experience didn't line up with the word of God.

I said, "I know but I'm just telling you what has been my experience. I'm just being honest".

Then the other brother replied, "Well if it doesn't line up with the word of God then....."

I forget exactly what he said. It's been over 10 years ago. Basically he was saying that if my experience didn't line up WITH HIS INTERPRETATION of the Word of God, that it wasn't valid. See that's the thing. These guys who stand on the Bible versus try to discredit real life experience by beating you over the head with their Bible and their interpretation of it. Don't the prosperity preachers do this?

"I know you lost your car, but the Bible says beloved I wish above things that thou mayest prosper....."

It's their interpretation of what the Bible is saying. That's where the clash comes with real life experience. I'd be willing to bet my life one one thing, and that is that every man that has just posted in thread has sinned AFTER they became a Christian. Even the most holy KK has even sinned after he became a Christian. Just kidding you KK!

"Yeah but brother the Bible says in I John 3:9 he cannot not sin because he is born of God.!!!!" "Your experience doesn't line up with the word of God!"

See what I'm saying?

Do you remember the guys that used to be on Christian radio and you would call in to ask them about any tough questions you had? These guys had an answer for everything and every situation. Sorry, but nobody has a monopoly on truth. The Bible says we know in part and we see in part.

 2011/8/30 15:21
Veronica226
Member



Joined: 2010/2/3
Posts: 144
Montana

 Re:

Endzone said

Quote:
I'd be willing to bet my life on one thing, and that is that every man that has just posted in thread has sinned AFTER they became a Christian.


I don't think anyone on this forum would say they never sinned after they became a Christian. But you are getting sin and HABITUAL sin mixed up. Habitual sin is what God is talking about in 1 John 3. A Christian cannot remain in habitual sin. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit (Matthew 7). That's what Romans 6 is all about. You are dead to sin through Christ. It doesn't have dominion over you anymore. If it does, well your carnally minded and not God's. That's what He says in Romans 8. "5For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."
So yeah, actually the guy who told you your experience doesn't line up with the Word of God was right. It doesn't. And you should have repented then and there and been saved.

Quote:
Even the most holy KK has even sinned after he became a Christian. Just kidding you KK!


Proverbs 26:18-19 Like a madman who throws firebrands, arrows, and death, is the man who deceives his neighbor, and says, “I was only joking!"


_________________
Veronica

 2011/8/30 18:47Profile









 Re:

Brother Renouncer did a good word study on the verse from 1 John that lines up with your post Veronica.
___________________________________________________

I'm a pentecostal as well and thoroughly believe in all of the gifts but I'm having trouble with a few things posted to this thread.

The first Church had The Word of GOD coming out of the mouths of the Apostles, that they had depositied into their spirits, where The Spirit of Truth resides.
John 16:13 states that The Spirit of Truth - the Holy Spirit, will not speak of Himself, but whatever He 'hears', that shall He speak.
So what does the Holy Spirit inside of us hear? -- The Word of GOD from The Word of GOD.

Quote:
First came Christ, then came His Word.



This is where the confusion comes in.

Christ Jesus 'WAS/IS' The Word of GOD in the flesh.

He retains that Name even now and when He returns we see in Rev 19.

He was The Word of GOD from Eternity past and all that we read from Genesis 1 on is One that we now know as "Jesus" - though He's returning with a New Name... though retaining The Name - The Word of GOD.

We can never think that The Holy Spirit speaks anything other than The Word of GOD. Even in countries with no Bibles - He is speaking The Word of GOD into His Sheep that Know His Voice.

I remember prophesies given at Church by someone who didn't Know their Bible very well yet and when they got home, found out that they had spoken only Scriptures at Church and the impact was intense in the congregation.

The Spirit of Christ is The Spirit of Truth which only speaks The Word of GOD. Maybe not in KJ English though :)

But we will never ever be able to seperate Jesus from the Word of GOD Because He IS The Word of GOD and His Spirit of Truth, The Holy Spirit will only speak The Word of GOD.

As far as the question that Brother Flame asked - the first "experiential" proof that we receive as Christians is found in the verses I posted earlier ... the change from the rebellious Adamic nature to obedience to the Spirit of Truth within us. A change in our attitudes toward GOD and those promptings to not do certain things anymore and being led to do others. The witness of The Spirit within is first obedience and an experience of "being changed from within". Most all of us have experienced waking up with that feeling after we got saved - of suddenly loving people we didn't love before, etc. etc..
Another experiential witness is a "feeling" that what we are hearing from whatever source is either true or not true, even before we have any great Scripture knowledge. We just get an uneasy feeling when hearing certain things spoken and know it's the Holy Spirit of Truth witnessing to us that what we're hearing is not Scripturally true -- we find out later that it's wasn't as we learn more of the Word.

Those are the first two "experiential" events that happen to true converts.

Any other "mystical experiences" will only maginify The Word of GOD - both written and Him.

We truly need to do a word study on "The Word of GOD"
Psalm 138:2 is a good start.

Jesus and The Word of GOD is/are One and the Same - from eternity until eternity.

It "IS" and does have a Life of it's own - but if a person is not moved by it - it's because their spirits are dead or hardened.
The same Sun that melts ice - hardens clay. That's how The Word of GOD affects - according to the condition of our hearts.
The Pharisees had hardened their hearts against the LORD because Jesus said that they didn't "LOVE" The Father... the First Commandment was where they fell.

The Word of GOD is the Lamp to our feet and the Same Lamps that the wise Virgins carried with that extra oil of The Spirit of Truth.

We can't seperate The Spirit of Truth from The Spirit of Christ Jesus Who 'IS' The Word of GOD.
Too much seperating goes on in our minds of The Three in One. We need a Divine revelation of the 'Absolute' Co-Equality of the Three in One.
Reading The Old Testament your reading The Word of GOD - out from "the bosom of GOD" - that became flesh and we know, for now, as Jesus.

Jesus is GOD as The Word of GOD. Whether written or from His Spirit - it is representing Him and is Him and any manifestation of His Spirit will always lead us back to The Word of GOD and cause us to love His Word more and more.

Any experience that leads us away from or causes our awareness of our utter need and 'hunger' for His Word is not from The Word of GOD made flesh.
'HIS' mystical experiences always causes the one having those times to worship His Word and desire it more than food itself. That hunger should increase with spiritual age - not decrease and the pure Reverence for The Word of GOD should grow as well as that desire.

His Spirit cannot be seperated from Who He is.

In God will I praise His Word: in the LORD will I praise His Word.

Ps 56:10

 2011/8/30 21:22
Lysa
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3417
This world is not my home anymore.

 Re: Experience vs. Doctrine in Relationship with Christ


We have to go by our experience at times… I will explain:

I can debate with anyone over the gifts of the Spirit (tongues in particular), but when I receive God’s ultimate Gift, the baptism of the Holy Spirit and the gift of tongues; all arguments cease on my part because of my experience.

But those whose theology makes them unbelievers in the gifts being for today see me as trusting only in my “experience” and label me charismanic. There is a fine balance and we can’t base what we allow God to do in our life because of a few crazy people or perceived crazy people!

Just my two cents! God bless!
Lisa


_________________
Lisa

 2011/8/31 6:14Profile









 Re:

Amen Lysa,

You know, I have had people that tell me that Jesus was just a man, that God does not exist, that the Bible is just another book. Now, I have actually met Jesus. He speaks to me. Because of the Holy Spirit His word is alive to me. If someone comes up and tells me that my wife does not exist, how preposterous would that be? Jesus is not a head knowledge. Jesus is not a mental assent to an abstract truth. Jesus is not a philosophy. Jesus is not a historical figure like Napoleon, in the sense that they both actually existed but now are dead. Jesus is alive!!!!

And for me to say that is no mere mental assent. I do not say that because I have never met Him but believe He is alive. I say that because I did meet Him. He changed my whole life. I became a new creature, not in an abstract sense, but an actual new creature. I stopped drinking and smoking pot over night. It took me three days to realize that I did not curse anymore. From a place of despair I was filled with joy. From a place of hopelessness and suicidal thoughts, I was filled with hope eternal. I speak to Him, He speaks to me. All of that is " experience," and all of that is confirmed by the Word of God. The Word of God is a revelation to humanity, but it takes Jesus to illuminate it............ brother Frank

 2011/8/31 10:41









 Re:

Lisa, that was a great example in the "experience vs. doctrine" debate. How do you personally handle Christian people that go on the attack when your experience doesn't fit their doctrine or their interpretation of the Bible? I've been attacked, and I've seen people attacked, even viciously because their experience didn't fit another believer's doctrine. I wonder how you handle this.

And IMHO I think the "mercy and grace only" message has been perverted to become a doctrine. It has been extremely popular in the church and home groups the past 20 years or more. It fits in perfectly with the prosperity the U.S. has enjoyed at the same time. But, if I were to go to one of these meetings and give my testimony that God brought me into judgment for a habitual sin in my life and that the Lord was angry with this unrepented sin, I'll bet half the people there wouldn't believe me. I would be almost afraid to give my testimony in a group like that.

 2011/8/31 12:15
Lysa
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3417
This world is not my home anymore.

 Re: endzone


Quote:
Endzone wrote:
How do you personally handle Christian people that go on the attack when your experience doesn't fit their doctrine or their interpretation of the Bible?


I've never really been attacked, now I've had people challenge me but I don't argue with people over the gifts, it just makes them dig their heels in deeper. But when they have said something like, "Tongues is gone and not for today," I would very lovingly just smile at them and say, "That's ok if you don't want any gifts, I just know that I couldn't live without them!"

I live in the Bible belt of East Tennessee and after going to a Fellowship (Baptist) church for awhile, the Lord showed me not to push it on anyone but to let them get to know me and that because they loved me, they would accept the Holy Spirit and His gifts in me.... and they did!!!

God bless you,
Lisa


_________________
Lisa

 2011/8/31 21:42Profile
Lysa
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3417
This world is not my home anymore.

 Re: appolus


Quote:
appolus wrote:
If someone comes up and tells me that my wife does not exist, how preposterous would that be? Jesus is not a head knowledge. Jesus is not a mental assent to an abstract truth. Jesus is not a philosophy.


nor is he a certain doctrine or theology, imho.

Amen to your quote about your wife! You sleep with her, dine with her, drive with her, talk with her... she is VERY real to you! No one can tell you she's "just an experience"!!

God bless you brother,
Lisa


_________________
Lisa

 2011/8/31 21:47Profile









 Re: All

I have shared this in times past. It cane from a Christmas card I saw years ago.

The Word did not become a philosophy, a theology, or a concept to be discussed, debated, or pondered.

But the Word became a person to be followed, loved, and enjoyed.

One other thing to add. I find it interesting that the old question the Presbyterians would ask is What is the chief end of man? The answer would be to glorify God and enjoy him forever. To me that enjoying him forever speaks of experience. The experience of Christ in our lives.

For the record I do speak in tongues and believe that all the gifts of the Spirit are in operation today. I have been in prayer groups where we have taken authority over hurricanes, tsunamis, tornadoes, etc. and have seen them disapated For sure God is to be truly praised.

Submitted in Christ,

Blaine Scogin .

 2011/9/1 0:15





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