| Re: |
I refuse to read "copy paste" articles on here. If I want to look up an article I will. I come here to hear other posters thoughts.
| 2011/8/29 16:09|
| Re: |
Could you specify what experiences make up a warm and vibrant fellowship with God through Christ, but do not fall into what you would define as "subjective revelations or mystical experiences"?
Hi flameoffire. I believe we're seeing 'conversions' based upon emotions or experiences more now-a-days then ever before - not being based upon true Biblical commitment and regeneration, but just a response to a fire escape or feel good message.
Counterfeit conversions have been on the rise for some time and Satan will surely give the desired "burning in the chest" or whatever other manifestations that a person is looking for, of "God". Even signs and wonders, as He warned.
Mat 7:21-25 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. 'Therefore' whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: and the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
Apparently, the fruit wasn't there because they neglected His Word.
We only love Jesus as much as we love the Word of GOD.
| 2011/8/29 19:40|
| Re: Experience vs. Doctrine in Relationship with Christ|
Jesus Christ wants to tare down experience and doctrine and give us revelation of Himself.
He alone is the way the truth the life the bread from heaven.
God does nothing outside of the Son.
He does not give us things, only His Son.
The cross of Christ will teach us this.
| 2011/8/29 20:43||Profile|
| Re: "I never knew you"|
I'm all for experience, but this Mat 7:21-25 "I never knew you" wasn't detetcted by the believers despite their practical experiences they had
what makes it one of the deadliest deceptions in scripture
since they had great works in the Lord, what did He mean exactly with the reason given: "ye that work iniquity" ?
They haven't been converted? They tried to bring the gospel to others but have been "Immune" to regeneration themselves?
Still trying to understand the whole picture how that could have happened, because according to modern understanding it cannot happen.
| 2011/8/29 21:56||Profile|
| Re: Fellowship with a Person|
We have to realize we are in fellowship with a person. In this case the person of Jesus. The early disciples walked and talked with the living breathing Son of God. They were not fellowshipping with the Torah but him who fulfilled the Torah. This is why Jesus told the Pharasees and teachers if the law that the scriptures testifies of him. But they would not come to him for life. Again the implication is an invite to a person. Not a systenm of doctrine.
The sane holds true today. The same Jesus who walked and talked with the disciples lives in us by the person of the Holy Spirit. I know this may upset our Calvinism but the living God of the universe comes into your life when you accept Christ. Does anyone believe that God dwells in them? Do not the scriptures teach this? I think they do but at this hour of the night don't have the time to quote them.
But this may answer Flame's question. The way to cultivate a warm relationship with God is realize he is living in you. Whatever you see, he sees. Whatever you do, he is aware of it. Whatever you think, he knows. God is living in us. If we become aware of this then start talking to him. Just as if your best friend were right there. And should he, Jesus not be your best friend. Carry on a conversation with him through out the day. Even when you read the wotd invite him to read with you. Ask him what did he mean when you wrote that passage. After all he is the author if the book.
Some may be saying this is mystical or not reverent. Saint this is relationship. You are called into relationship with Jesus not with a book or the five points.
I will close my post with this beautiful quote from a Christmas card I once saw.......
The Word did not become a philosophy, theology, or concept to be discussed, debated, or pondered,
But the Word became a Person to be followed, loved, and enjoyed.
I pray we all may know the beauty if that relationship with Jesus. And the joy that such a relationship brings forth.
Submitted in Jesus,
| 2011/8/29 23:48|
| Re: |
a balence is needed
paull said to timothey ,to hold fast the the doctrine that he gave him.it is actual able to save him
and all thos ewho will hear him
bibilcal doctrine is also revalation
jesus said the words i speak are spirit
jesus also spoke through the apostals
the bible it self is all doctrine ,teacing ,revalation
and only the living word make this come alive in our hearts
i found it a litle funny ,that many people that say the bible is realy important ,or doest have athority ,acauuly quote it like it does have the athority
jesus quoted teaching from the bible to defet the teptation of the devil
the new birth it self is contained in doctrine
the bapistim of the spirit ,is contained in bible doctrine
most of what we all know comes from ilumination of scriptural doctrine
god uses it for our edafacation
we are not monks .that go into a cave ,and recieve all our knowlage through medtation
paull instructed that his leters be read and obeayed by the church
you cant seperat doctrine and the writtern word from the living word of god which in shaper then any two edeged sword
we are instructed by doctrine to continue in doctrine
the nesesaty of prayer and fasting is all contained in doctrine ,that we are instrusted to heed
we arent gnostist that just relei on iner knowlage
that would be relativism
every man would what is right in his own so called spiritual eyes
scripture cant be broken ,and that scripture ,is full to over flowing with doctrine
peter said people twist paull writings like the rest of scripture ,,put paull letters on parr with scripture
look at johns revalaton
last i checked no one has ever had that revalation before
we relie on the living christ,,AND the gosple he preached ,in person ,and the gosple he preached in the spirit to the apostals
the bible said in acts they all continued in the apostals doctrine
we are to contine in this same doctrine
jesus said believe the gopsle which is full of doctrine
jesus said go make desciple of all the nations ,TEACHING THEM to observe all the things i hav comanded you and lo i wil be will with till the end
indoctrinating them to obeserve all things i commanded
we recieve our salvation by beieveing in a living doctrine that is presented to us about jesus
when some one evageliseses, they use a doctrine about christs ,,of corse by his living eteurnal spirit are we quikend to recieve this
for jesus said no man can come to me unless my father draws him
friends we cant seperatin soung teaching from the great rabi teacher prophert, eurnal son of god ,,,,,,
but i can see the problem when people are abusing doctrine ,youing a selective theoligy ,and denng the power
but i wont throw the baby out with the bath water so to speak
that would hurt the baby
| 2011/8/30 2:11||Profile|
| Re: Experience vs. Doctrine in Relationship with Christ|
flameoffire: I don't really know if I have anything that is so new as to be a gamechanger in this discussion, but I do perhaps have a different way to look at this.
The early church did not have the scripture as we do. The Torah and perhaps the remainder of the old testament books were kept in the local synagogue and read weekly. The common man did not have access to the word of God except at these times and in discussions with others about the scriptures where one remembered scripture. The new testament was not written for a period of time after Christ's ascension. When Paul (for example) went into a city he preached the good news of Christ and the people experienced the regeneration of the spirit and the infilling of the Holy Spirit. Paul would often stay for a period of time teaching and then leave. The church in that city was on its own. Outside of their own experience they had only the traditions that Paul taught them and the ability to go to a Jewish synagogue each week to hear some of the OT read to them. (We find examples that this was also Paul's practice and then he would bring up that the OT scripture pointed to Christ and debate with the Jews.)
So I think the very foundations of the church were in the experience that the believers had with the transforming power of the Holy Spirit in their lives. In fact, having the word personally is a pretty recent development having taken place only in the last few hundred years. Yet somehow the church survived.
But we have been given the written word and we know that the written word is truth and that it is infallible. We know that every subjective experience that is not in agreement with the written word is to be rejected as not of God as His actions will not disagree with His written word.
There is a danger though in rejecting the experience entirely in exchange for an academic sole reliance on the written word. A man who is born again has entered into a relationship with a living, active, and supernatural God. This very fact screams experience. And the man who rejects experience and trades it instead for academic understanding will be dead, lifeless, and will very often go off into error not understanding that the word is a living and active thing.
On the other hand there is also a danger when we unplug from the foundation of the word and simply rely on experience. Men who do this often become flaky, and fast.
To me the proper understanding is not the balancing of two extremes and the harmonizing of two perspectives. To me the word and the Spirit, the written and the experience are like two sides of the same coin. They are inseparable and work together. We cannot isolate one from the other.
| 2011/8/30 8:26||Profile|
| Re: Travis, Frank, Cryinthenight|
I think your post bring a balance or I should I say a harmonizing truth and Spirit. I have tried to draw from such in my own post. I have often wondered how did the early church survive and even thrive without access to a New Testament. Travis I appreciate your insights into that time and agree. I would dare say that the early church had a greater and more intimate relationship with the Spirit than we do today. Could it be that now we who are blessed with access to the word in this age have substituted the written code for the new way if the Spirit?
I find it remarkable that even today in restricted nations where believers do not readily have access to the scriptures the church grows. These saints seem to have a deeper faith walk with Christ than we with our Bibles do. Just an observation.
I am not advocating throwing our Bibles away. A shirt time ago I opened a thread and asked about the importance if Bibke reading in this forum. I praise God we have the scriptures and available in different translations. But again our fellowship is with the persen of Jesus and not a book or a system of doctrine.
Submitted in Jesus,
| 2011/8/30 10:49|
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Good post Travis. As a classic pentecostalist (I hate to use any label) it is a constant source of irritation to somehow have to defend Charismania. My foundation is upon Christ Himself and His Word. First came Christ, then came His Word. I reject every single thing that is not in Scriptures. Every expereince i have had, and there has been many beautiful,majestic, life altering experiences, lines up with the word of God. You simply cannot come into the presence of God and be unchanged. Can I suggest that the true presence of God ( experientially) ruins you for everything in this life. The old hymn goes like this .....
Turn your eyes upon Jesus
Look full in His wonderful face
And the things of earth shall grow strangely dim
In the light of His glory and grace
Now this hymn writer was talking about a real personal Jesus. This was not academics. If one has not experienced His glory and grace, one would have to search their hearts.
Now look at what has happened to many so called experts in the Word ( which simply proves that it is the Holy Spirit that leads and guides into all Truth, not ones brain) So many have literally ripped out chapters of the Bible that does not agree with their own personal theology. Cessasionists come to mind. This only proves that one can be an expert in the Scriptures, as I am sure that the Scribes and Pharisees were, and get it completely wrong. I love the fact that uneducated fishermen shocked these scribes and Pharisees, they could not understand how these men could speak as ' learned," men. And of course the answer was that they had walked with Jesus and that the Holy Spirit had come to them. The Word without the Spirit is like a majestic sunset to a blind man........ brother Frank
| 2011/8/30 11:10|
| When the Word of Truth matures into experience by the Spirit.|
12. "That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ."
13."In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation:
in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise.!"
"The Bible is not our primary revelation of God, and it is not our primary experience as Christians. It is meant to lead us into greater experience with Christ, guide us into more of Him and protect us from false experience and lies."...flameoffire.
Thanks for the post; a very important subject. "Thy Word, Oh Lord...IS Truth." I think that every and all experience can be funneled into the Word...and as you say, protect us. Obviously, though there has arisen much dogma, divisions,and animosity about the interpretation of the Holy Word, and Satan has also used the Holy writ, twisting it slightly here and there, to destroy God's people, and even the Lord himself in His temptation.
Paul the apostle speaks about teaching the Word to disciples;
20. "And how I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have shewed you, and have TAUGHT you publicly, and from house to house,
21. "Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus." Christ."
We must be grounded in the Word, to survive, because experience alone is not enough to stand for everyone. How do we know if a thing taught is perverse or not? We must know the Light to break open the dark.
28. "Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
29. For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking..!![teaching a gospel contrary to the Word..]
..perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
31. Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.
32. And now, brethren,
!!!....I commend you to God, "AND TO THE WORD OF HIS GRACE!!" ....
....which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.!
Within the Bible we will find the complete Word of His Grace, and the Holy Spirit will never, ever disagree with it, but always agree. We must believe though, that the Word is Spirit inspired...and realize that "The letter kills; but it is the Spirit that gives Life.
We are observing the tragic throws of the Great Falling Away today...with movements and denominations that have basically abandoned the Word , as written in the Bible, as the one and only anchor to their experience...[or lack of it..].
This brings death...and a sure Hell awaiting to the deceived.
17."Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them."
We narrow our thoughts, experience and life to agree with the Word, by the Spirit, and cling to that path; the only way to Life. Jesus is the living Word and agrees, by conviction on our part, with the Written word......IF, IF, we have Ears to hear. This is always the indwelling Spirit who is always speaking as He lives in a temple; brother or sister.
Hopefully, Experience and the Word will be one. This is called Holiness unto the Lord. Also, let us remember that there are multiple millions of illiterate brothers and sisters that we will meet in Heaven...that only heard the Word, and believed. The Word is the Spirit of Truth; the Spirit of the Lord Jesus.
| 2011/8/30 12:05|