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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : I John 3:9, We can't sin if we are Christians?

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 I John 3:9, We can't sin if we are Christians?

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

I got into a heated discussion about this with a couple of brothers several years ago at a Bible study. They kept insisting that we couldn't sin if we were Christians because of this verse. I told them that either their interpretation of this verse was wrong or the Bible is telling a lie. BECAUSE, haven't we all sinned AFTER we became Christians? Are you going to tell me that you never masturbated or lost your cool and exploded in anger on somebody or on your wife or you never cut somebody off on the road or worse, etc? You never over ate? What these brothers were trying to tell me was that if I sinned I wasn't a Christian. I kept asking them about this, and they would just answer by repeating this verse. Then I asked if they ever sinned since they became a Christian and they just repeated this verse. I tried to explain that their interpretation of this verse must be wrong, and then they answered by repeating this verse. IMHO they were really arrogant. They refused to listen to logic on this.

But, have I never really been a Christian? I've sinned a lot since I became a Christian. Have I just been kidding myself all along? Was my friend's interpretation of this verse correct? If we sin once after we become a Christian we weren't really Christians?

 2011/8/28 12:01









 Re: I John 3:9, We can't sin if we are Christians?

Yes it is true, we often think we are Christians when we are in the early stages and still sin as believers, but we are not. It is only the start when we come to Christ for forgiveness. There then is a period when we find out that the old man is still active and we are unable toobey Christ as we should. There is something more which needs to happen to us before we are truly walking in the Spirit. This something enables us to walk without sin.

 2011/8/28 12:38









 Re: Endzone

Brother this is one of those passages where some Greek experts would be helpful. Unfortunately that ain't me. From what I have heard from those more knowledgable John seems to be talking about a PATTERN of sin. In the verse you referenced there is something in the tense of the Greek that suggest after conversion or the new birth one will stop sinning AS A LIFESTYLE. What seems to be in view here is the PRACTICE of sin and not individual acts of sin.

If what I have shared makes sense then it comports with the harmony of scripture and what the New Testament teaches about putting away sin to death with the Spirit's help. The one thing 1 John 3:9 does not teach is aimless perfection. If one derives that meaning out off this one passage then they woukd have to explain away 1 John 1:8-10. These scriptures teach that if we say we have no sin then we call God a lier. Then the familiar passage of 1 John 1:9 that says if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. Scripture does not contradict scripture particularly in the same epistle.

So I think what is in view in 1 John 3:9 is God has delivered us from sin as a lifestyle. But there will be those times and for me they are all to frequent that individual acts of sin by thoight or act will drive me back to 1 John 1:9 for cleansing.

I hope this helps. I am sure there are those in this forum who can provide more clarity on this issue.

Submitted in Christ,

Blaine Scogin

 2011/8/28 13:26
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.

 Re:

1 John 3:8-9 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Who is the sinless One? He that is in us and His Seed remains no matter what, that is our birthing from God, the Incorruptable Seed of God the Father born again in the believer, He is the One that does not sin.

This explains "born from above, cannot sin" Who is sinning?

1 John 2:1-2 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And (((((if any man sin,))))) we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

If any man sin, this man is us that the Seed is birthed in, The Seed cannot sin but "any man sin" can. Then 1 John 1: 9

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2011/8/28 17:55Profile
Questor
Member



Joined: 2008/12/25
Posts: 78


 Re: Sinning as a Believer

I have long been with Adonai, but as a child who frequently stumbles, sin is a part of my life, much as I would prefer it not to be.

The Seed that was placed in me by the Ruach haKodesh glows with a holy and sacred influence, transforming me towards Yeshua's perfect example from faith to faith. This blessed Seed is a transformative one, much as a radioactive mineral causes changes in those exposed to it, so am I, born anew in the Spirit through Yeshua, but not yet complete.

My carnal body draws me toward sin, for this is a cursed and broken world, and mankind cursed as to be unable to NOT sin, no matter what we attempt to do in our own strength, except as the Spirit walks within us. I am tempted, and I do sin, often without being aware of it...not acting in ignorance, but in the blind following of my will towards those things that I think that I want, having been tempted and taught that what I want is good and natural.

And natural it is, for we humans to sin without thought or caring, until the Seed planted in us by the Holy Spirit slowly grows within us, and in a spiritually radioactive manner changes us from faith to faith.

The sinning becomes less, and the more we devote ourselves to hearing the Ruach guide our thoughts and decisions, the better the progress we make toward completion in Yeshua haMessiach.

Legally, we receive no judgement for sin because we are in Yeshua, and He is in us. Unfortunately, we do sin, and when we sin, if we repent of our sin, turn from it, and ask for forgiveness in Yeshua, YHWH will refuse to see that sin as He refuses to see the others.

Abba refuses to see our sin debt because of the covering, the kapparah, of Yeshua's blood. But we do sin. We are in the first Adam by body, and until our body becomes incorrupt, and we are as Yeshua is, we will sin, although less and less, and that not in our own strength, but in the Spirit.

We are mortal, and corrupt from birth, living in a cursed world, with our flesh as an enemy as well as the Adversary.

Adonai wants most of all, not that we attempt perfection in our own strngth, but to seek that completion in Him, through Yeshua, and the Ruach haKodesh.


Q

 2011/8/28 22:35Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.

 Re:

Wonderful Questor,

I agree with everything and would add only one comment.

Jesus is much more that just a covering for our sin.

He is;

The work of Christ is represented by a variety of English words today. These words all have technical meanings drawn from Scripture. In early English these words were much more common in use.

1. Atonement is making amends for a wrong done, for a loss or injury caused. This is a more general term and must be used cautiously because it includes the whole process of making us right with God through the work of Christ.

2. Expiation is the actual satisfaction of a wrong, making atonement for it. Expiation is particularly the effect of satisfaction upon the sinner’s guilt.

3. Propitiation is the appeasing of the one offended to remove the cause of his anger. Propitiation speaks primarily to the effect of satisfaction upon God as the offended party.

4. Reconciliation is our restored fellowship with God resulting from the removed offense. The New Testament verb is katalassein. The noun form is katalagae. It means to exchange, to change a person from enmity to friendship. This works in both directions: We are reconciled with God, and he with us.

His Cross work is finished and so perfect was the sacrifice that it takes away our sin and puts it never to be seen again as far as the east is form the west, which you cannot get to the west by always following east unless you stop and turn around. That is what it means we don't turn around and look west to see our sin and either does the Father, we are new creatures in Christ old things are passed away, all things become new always, God the Father sees me through the work of Christ on the cross, which is finished.

In Christ our blessed perfection making our image grow into the image of Jesus the Son, perfect. "For as He is in this world so are we", we are growing into His blessed image.

Colossians 1:27-29 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

And Pauls agony for us also; Romans 16:24-27 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen. Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen. Written to the Romans from Corinthus, and sent by Phebe servant of the church at Cenchrea.

What is the power of God establishing us into? The revelation of the Mystery? Who's Gospel? What Secret? Manifest to who? Through our Glory in Jesus Christ for ever.

Fulfilling the Word of God in us; Colossians 1:25-27 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

What a glorious Hope: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2011/8/29 0:12Profile









 Re:

 2011/8/29 1:48
Renoncer
Member



Joined: 2010/6/26
Posts: 483


 Re:

Endzone,

πας ο γεγεννημενος εκ του θεου αμαρτιαν ου ποιει οτι σπερμα αυτου εν αυτω μενει και ου δυναται αμαρτανειν οτι εκ του θεου γεγεννηται

Literally: Anyone “who has been born” of God (perfect passive participle – verb tense denotes an action that has been completed in the past unto the subject by an exterior actor, which continues to have an effect in the present), does not “do” sin (present active indicative – verb tense denotes an action that is “continuous” in the present, done by the actor himself), because His seed remains in him; and he “does not have the power” to sin, because he “has been born” of God.

As you see, because of an action that has been finished in the past by an exterior actor, the subject has limitations in the present.
Namely, because of the regenerating work of God (making a person be born-again), the Christian does not “do” sin anymore, in the present. Let me explain using this illustration:
Have you ever heard people who “do” drugs say something like, “Do you ‘do’ crack?” What they are asking is this: “Are you into this?” They are not asking, “Have you done it at one time or another?”, but rather, “Is this something that characterizes your way of living?”

Now, John is saying, “The person who has been born of God does not ‘do’ sin”.
αμαρτιαν ου ποιει
Why? Because he has been born of God, and therefore God’s seed remains in him.

For this reason, I believe the ESV has an excellent translation of that verse:

"No one born of God MAKES A PRACTICE OF SINNING, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God."

In Christ,
Renoncer

P.S.: You may want to read Charles Leiter's book entitled "Justification and Regeneration", including Appendix B, which deals with that verse. It is simple but excellent.

 2011/8/29 9:27Profile









 Re: Renoncrr

Thanks brother. You conveyed more accurately what I was trying to convey to Endzone in ny earlier post. Also your illustrations helped me gain a better understanding of that passage.

Blaine

 2011/8/29 9:34
Renoncer
Member



Joined: 2010/6/26
Posts: 483


 Re:

Brother Blaine,
I thought your response was excellent. For the most part, I believe you do not need to know Greek or Hebrew to know the Word of God. Like you did, we can look at the context and compare passages of Scripture to get an accurate picture of what is being conveyed. However, sadly, some people twist passages out of context. When they do so and refuse to let Scripture interpret Scripture, knowing Greek or Hebrew will help to properly divide the Word.

Now, we can avoid two pitfalls:
1) Concept of sinless perfection
2) Concept that a real born-again believer can still live in sin
Both are impossible and unbiblical.

I am French-Canadian by birth, and I can tell you that every reliable French translation clearly and unambiguously conveys that meaning (that of PRACTICING SIN).

In Christ,
Renoncer

 2011/8/29 9:58Profile





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