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Thank you shornlamb, it has encouraged me to hear from you too and it was great to hear your testimony of when the Lord sanctified you after hearing Duncan Campbell. I met the daughter of a man who had been blessed by him too, recently at the Faith Mission in Edinburgh but sadly, I did not find any seekers there. I have read Andrew Murray a lot and especially rate Humility highly. I have also been blessed by Schlink.

After reading "DEEPER EXPERIENCES OF FAMOUS CHRISTIANS", I think I am right in guessing that the writer is a Pentecostal, and who makes the mistake that all Pentecostals make, in recounting the marvellous testimonies of the sanctified of past times by adding in a few of their own denominations most noted people, who taught the Bapttism of the Spirit, and all from more recent times but it is not the same Baptism that the holiness folk taught. First of all, it is all about speaking in tongues as evidence, instead of the evidence believed in by holiness folk, that is, a holy life issuing from a pure heart.

They have not read their history books enough to see that holiness folk in the late 19th century separated themselves from this new interpretation of the experience, and would have nothing to do with tongues. That, and other manifestations, were thought of as inevitable where the power of God is being manifest, but not coming from the same Spirit. They would tolerate them to a certain extent but often those manifesting would be asked to leave. None of the true holiness teachers taught tongues.

In Jesse Penn-Lewis`s book War on the Saints, in the unabridged version (no guessing why) there is a piece quoted by a German pastor named Pastor Stockmayher who explains exactly what happens physiologically in the Pentecostal experience which is the same sort of thing found in various non Christian belief systems. The people describing it all recount a sensation of something which can be likened to a tumbler overturning inside and then feelings of incredible peace without the emphasis being on encountering a holy God and beeing given a pure heart.

This brings me back to the statement made by aussiedler, that he has observed these people and they are not showing the fruits of holiness. I have observed it too. I know that we disagree on this issue, but it warmed my heart to hear him discerne the truth on certain points. (Sadly one thing I found amongst Germans is a coldness of heart generally speaking. )I missed the small kindnesses found everyday in the street from my own nationals.

On there being a formula, of course we are dealt with in different ways by God but holiness only has one face and that is likewise to the Son of God, and as God works to order, and spiritual laws are just as exact as spiritual, there is indeed a set way that man is brought to see the core of his being and so come to Christ to have the sin nature destroyed as in Romans 6. The circumtances will change but the issues are the same.

 2011/8/22 6:27



`and you are right in explaining the old man from romans 6 - but the old man/flesh can come alive every moment, if the believer decides to do so (stop believing that the old self is dead. Paul says in him IS (present tense) still nothing good.`

Yes indeed the old man can come alive again (after being destroyed) whenever we walk in the flesh. But it says in Jude that He keeps us from falling and elsewhere that He gives a way of escape for every temptation.

Paul is correct and all those who claim holiness will say with him that in themselves there is nothing good. But thank God He is within us and overcomes this.

 2011/8/22 6:37

Joined: 2011/8/6
Posts: 103


hey shortlamb ,,,,ducun was a calvinst was he not

ive herd about 6 sermons of his

chilling preacher

what are your thoughts ,loyd jones

i haventverny herd verry much ,but what i herd was verry spiritual

thanks for the link to cambles sermon

i beleievd for quite a wile in the seconed blesing

some times i call it the seconed birth

it seems like one is born again 2

i believe iv experanced it

because it over shadowed the first time i came to christ

and recieved the gift of faith and repentance

and everything that led up to the sceconed blessing

it was a serious climax
and did have much santifing power

that was when i new joy that was unspeakable that was full of glory , some how it was much stronger then my new birth

i was convictided for years before this experance ,regarding the firt few chapters in the boof of acts ,,,,and when the spirit filled me ,i thought this is what happened to those in the bible

im not happy to say ,that i lost some of that anointing

but have been convicted to to seek a fresh filling through reglar fasting and prayer

and through faith
that god is calling me to a deeper walk with him

my new birth happened out side a church
by reading my bible

and the seconed blessing happened minutes after i was witnessing to a close family member i walked in to the loung room and sat down
and he came

iv never been the same scince that day

but i strugle because i have no elder or teachers

to exort but ithink god has had much paintent with because of that ,

 2011/8/22 6:47Profile

Joined: 2009/12/4
Posts: 1862


I found a lot of Pentecostals especially the Assemblies of Godd were off shoots and find their roots in Azuzu Street Revival as their beginnings. There was much dabate on the matters of tongues and even was a debate among some of the leaders Parham and Durham, this debate was so severe that Parham even prayed to God that the one that was wrong would die, Durham died before Parham, so Parham declared himself the victor in the debate.

Could someone Spirit filled with the Holy Spirit of a Loving God make such a request? That one would Die to prove a point? Not to mention be incredibly racist against William Seymour who was the leader of the Azusa Street revivals? Hum I don't really think so.

I have come to this conclusion about Spirit filled Baptism, When you are Spirit filled you will show a life that lines up with the fruits of the Spirit in a new found and supernatural way Love, Joy, Peace, Faithfulness, Kindness, Goodness, Self control to name the ones on the top of my head, Not only showing forth these but also moving and operating in Holiness. One Spirit filled is enveloped in the Person Jesus Christ and so when one looks at the Spirit filled Christian they no longer see the Christian but Christ Jesus shining through far brighter. This Holy Spirit is one of Humility and Holiness.

I have seen many people abuse this Pentecostal doctrine and with it are arrogant and proud because "they are filled with the Spirit" and can speak in tongues. I reject it based off of their fruit if a Holy God truly came inside you it would humble you to the very core of your being. Your response would be that of Jeremiahs or Isaiahs of being unworthy to even know the Lord.

I say all of this I believe in the gifts of the Spirit, I wholeheartedly do, I am even Pentecostal by belief in the things that happened on the Day of Pentecost are for us today. I also know that there are many brothers and sisters that will disagree with me which I am okay with, I know also there are many who speak in tongues on here who are quite humble in the matter (I appreciate you very much) But I am only speaking from my experience and with what the Lord has shown me.

I am also aware there will be good Pentecostals and Bad ones as well that misrepresent the scriptures or enforce them with their actions. I am not seeking to offend but only to speak the truth and my testimony.

Matthew Guldner

 2011/8/22 7:03Profile

Joined: 2005/2/14
Posts: 109


krautfrau wrote:

"(Sadly one thing I found amongst Germans is a coldness of heart generally speaking. )I missed the small kindnesses found everyday in the street from my own nationals."

I have to admit that is right for my country. There is a spiritual stronghold in germany that consists in a hatred against weakness in any form, against kindness and emotion. But God is breaking this stronghold more and more, and the hearts are melting...

..the more people start repenting, the more this stronghold breaks and satan looses his power.

 2011/8/22 7:10Profile

Joined: 2010/10/31
Posts: 16


Thanks brothergary for yours.

I'm not sure whether Duncan Campbell was a Calvinist or not -- it's not so important for me. He just loved the Lord with all his heart, didn't he! I loved to hear him say that if we let God fill our hearts completely, there will be no room for anything else.

And re your question about Martin Lloyd Jones. I don't know the answer to that one either. I've not had chance to listen to him yet.

Thank you for the encouragement you give in sharing your experiences.

Yes, it's one thing experiencing an anointing, and quite another to stay under that anointing. Learning the little steps of obedience has been a big help for me on that one. Andrew Murray wrote a wonderful book called Obedience.

Like you, I am still learning. And like you, I thank the Lord for His great patience.

 2011/8/22 13:11Profile


Hey brothergary!

`i was convictided for years before this experance ,regarding the firt few chapters in the boof of acts ,,,,and when the spirit filled me ,i thought this is what happened to those in the bible

im not happy to say ,that i lost some of that anointing

but have been convicted to to seek a fresh filling through reglar fasting and prayer

and through faith
that god is calling me to a deeper walk with him`

This is what I went through. What got me back to the annointing was a book by Francis Havergal called the Royal Invitation. It was an amazing book for me and brought me not just back but to a deeper level

 2011/8/22 13:23

Joined: 2005/2/14
Posts: 109


If you have a chance to get the Book "The Argentine Revival" from Dr. R. Edward Miller and his Tapes about the holy spirit and the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. They are awesome and he shows you straight from the bible that speaking in tongues is not the full baptism (he was pentecostal), but a full baptism of the spirit and fire includes some more things (he is not against speaking in tongues, he only points makes clear from the bible that there is much more)

And he speaks from experience also, he spoke in tongues since childhood, but when he was a already a pentecostal missionary for many years and because he saw so little fruit he thought about quitting the ministry.

He wanted to say to god something like "I have tried out everything, but it didn't work, so I can go back to the states and earn a living" - then one thought came to him: you have not tried fasting and prevailing prayer. make a long story short: he had a tremendous encounter with the living god, he called it later a baptism of fire (and fire speaks of the holiness of god and purging and cleansing)

after that the first argentine revival started and the rest is history...

now go and read that book, you will like it of you like "deeper experiences" ;-)

 2011/8/22 13:53Profile

Joined: 2008/4/1
Posts: 536
America's Flyover Country


A few thoughts that may answer some of the questions asked in this thread.

The fruit of the Spirit and baptism of the Spirit are two distinctly different things for expressly different purposes.

The FRUIT of the Spirit is to develop Christ like character in our lives.
The BAPTISM and GIFTS of the Spirit are to empower us and enable us to do ministry in the name of Jesus Christ

You may well see folks with excellent FRUIT of the Spirit in their lives.... but no power or gifts in operation. Conversely you may also see people with a powerful anointing and gifts of the Spirit in operation but not very much fruit of the Spirit in evidence. This ought not be ... but it is often the case. For example read the first few chapters of 1 Corinthians. Obviously lots of gifts, manifestations, and power... but they were shallow, factious, divisive, and not walking in love according to the Apostle Paul. Fair to say they had GIFTS... but little fruit. However, there are many today...many on this website in fact.. that exemplify wonderful fruit of the Spirit.....but have virtually none of the power of God evidenced in their life and the gifts never function through them.

Can we be mature enough to see that God wants to show extremely powerful manifestations and anointings through His people that show He is indeed alive and working the miraculous in our midst? However, may we also be mature enough to see He desires to do that through those who have established a platform of credibility by the fruit they exhibit in their lives?

If we only have fruit the world is right to question whether we actually have the relationship with a supernatural God that we say we do. If we only have gifts and no fruit then the supernatural is tainted and discredited by our rotten attitudes and lack of spiritual fruit. It must be this AND that... not this OR that!

However, we humans have made a mess of this simple thought over and over again!

As to where Duncan Cambell fell in these matters- the answers can be found in his own words on some of the sermons here on SI. He also authored a few small booklets that I purchased at one time that address these thoughts. Mr. Cambell was a Presbyterian. In Duncan's own words he said, "He was a Calvinist...but that he rejected in the strongest terms any form of Calvinism that took away man's responsibility before God". He further stated that, "One of the keys to the Hebrides revival was a definitive work of grace called the baptism of the Holy Spirit that happened subsequent to salvation. It was a supernatural empowerment from God that came after salvation". He further clarified that in the Hebrides revival folks were not normally speaking in tongues...although he was not in any way opposed to it...however, it was not something they saw much of there and that he had never personally spoken in tongues although he had a definite baptism in the Holy Spirit years after being born again. He also mentions that visions, trances, and similar phenomenon were not uncommon. A final interesting point he shared was that in the Hebrides physical healing was not seen very often. However, it is abundantly clear that God shook the land and a mighty visitation of God happened.

Again..balance. These were his observations of the Hebrides. However, he was also quick to say that might not be the way God chose to move in another location. I can get the exact references if needed..may take a bit... but I definitely have them all in my library.

Hope this helps a little to bring a balanced perspective. May we all grow up into maturity in Christ that reveals powerful anointing, gifts,and manifestations coming forth from people that are just bursting with the fruit of the Spirit in their lives!



 2011/8/22 14:58Profile

Joined: 2005/2/14
Posts: 109


I would add, that without the holy spirit it is impossible to have the fruit of the spirit and the power of the spirit.

But if I claim to be full of the holy spirit, than I should show BOTH, the fruit and the power, otherwise dont claim that you are FULL.

Some have power, some fruit, but very few have both = very few are really FULL.

 2011/8/22 15:10Profile

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