SermonIndex Audio Sermons
SermonIndex - Promoting Revival to this Generation
Give To SermonIndex
Discussion Forum : General Topics : Can Love For God be Separated from Obedience ?

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 Next Page )
PosterThread
brothergary
Member



Joined: 2011/8/6
Posts: 103


 Re:

hi brenda ,,,well thats you opinoin sis when it comes to paul and james weather what they did was sin as well

i remember paull also have an argument with m was it barnabus and then they never spoke again

that was also sin

but that is my opinion i sopose

paull saif i am the cheif of sinners ,he said this is a worthy saying ,and should excepted by his readers

im not saying he is yeach that we should continue to practic that grae may aboud some how

we must repent from all sin fornacation steelling lieing
idolarty ,

i doubt in most cases if you are living a life of say fornacation ,that you are a christan

i believe that we must produce the fruit of the spirit

well the spirit must produce it

but the bible teaches also we stumble in many things

and then gives an example of our toung


the bible exorts us
to confess our falts to one another
and pray for one another that we maby healed
and then says it the efual feverent prayer of the righeous man avalis much under these circumstances

jesus him self exorts us in his prayer to ask the father to for give us of our sins ,as we are continualy forgiving others

i sinned this morning ,i slept in to five o clock

i should hane been up at four o clock

that is my prayer time

in now insted of prayeing ,im typing

god is more important yet i would rather type

im glad he has grace to forgive me

i sinned last night i think i ate more then i should have

iwith out doubt could have givern more to missions this week ,,,,,even 20 dolars , i know ican afford it

its true i didnt pray last night

my broken finger was to sore ,,,but when i think now ,you know i should have prayed any way

i wintessee to an ex jehova witness yestaday ,,i could have asked him over for a coffie ,and more witnessing ,but i didnt ,,i must have been thinking more of my self and my broken finger

i have a day of from work to day

i should give the lord 3 hours of prayer out of my nine hours that i wont be at work ,what would be better then that ,,,,,,,,,,sister it is more then likly iwill only pray for an hour and a half half as much ,and the same as a would even if i spent 9 hours at work

sorry sister ,,, im with paull

iam the chief of sinner


how do you see that verse and what do you think jesus is teaching

iknoww great men of god like john piper ,paul washer ,george whitfield took on the mantle and even tho they are verry holy man in there words and deeds ,saw them self as cheif of sinneres

does god not show you your weekness ,and how you stumble in many things ,,, he does to me

i will humbley admit it i need more of his grace daily




 2011/8/17 15:38Profile
brothergary
Member



Joined: 2011/8/6
Posts: 103


 Re:

krisspy ,,you are a reformed brother ,
what doest it mean to keep his commanments,,

lol maby you should have read a little more lol

or is it that you have not sinned scince conversion

 2011/8/17 15:43Profile
ArtB
Member



Joined: 2004/4/27
Posts: 431
New York

 Re:

by KrispyKrittr on 2011/8/17 5:14:32

"I'm late to this conversation and have not read thru all of this...

Let me answer the title question: NO.

"If you love Me you will keep My commands."

Seems pretty cut and dry to me. Krispy"

Okay, Jesus did say that. But His commandments are those of the the New Covenant of Jesus Christ, that we have in Jesus, and not those of the Mosaic Covenant.

Heb 7:11-21

11 Now if perfection was through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the people received the Law), what further need was there for another priest to arise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be designated according to the order of Aaron? 12 For when the priesthood is changed, of necessity there takes place a change of law also. 13 For the one concerning whom these things are spoken belongs to another tribe, from which no one has officiated at the altar. 14 For it is evident that our Lord was descended from Judah, a tribe with reference to which Moses spoke nothing concerning priests. 15 And this is clearer still, if another priest arises according to the likeness of Melchizedek, 16 who has become such not on the basis of a law of physical requirement, but according to the power of an indestructible life. 17 For it is attested of Him,

"YOU ARE A PRIEST FOREVER
ACCORDING TO THE ORDER OF MELCHIZEDEK."

18 For, on the one hand, there is a setting aside of a former commandment because of its weakness and uselessness 1for the Law made nothing perfect, and on the other hand there is a bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God. And inasmuch as it was not without an oath, for they indeed became priests without an oath, but He with an oath through the One who said to Him,

Heb 7:21-22

"THE LORD HAS SWORN
AND WILL NOT CHANGE HIS MIND,
'YOU ARE A PRIEST FOREVER'";

22 so much the more also Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant. NASU

So from the above, it is clear that the Mosaic Laws have been replaced the Laws of Jesus Christ under a new Covenant. Just as it was clearly prophesied in Zechariah Chapter 11.

Vs 1-3 prophesy the destruction of Herod's Temple in Jerusalem.

Zec 11:7-14 Prophesy the God annihilating the Mosaic Covenant.

7 So I pastured the flock doomed to slaughter, hence the afflicted of the flock. And I took for myself two staffs: the one I called Favor and the other I called Union; so I pastured the flock. Then I annihilated the three shepherds in one month, for my soul was impatient with them, and their soul also was weary of me. Then I said, "I will not pasture you. What is to die, let it die, and what is to be annihilated, let it be annihilated; and let those who are left eat one another's flesh."

10 I took my staff Favor and cut it in pieces, to break my covenant which I had made with all the peoples. So it was broken on that day, and thus the afflicted of the flock who were watching me realized that it was the word of YHWH. I said to them, "If it is good in your sight, give me my wages; but if not, never mind!" So they weighed out thirty shekels of silver as my wages. Then the LORD said to me, "Throw it to the potter, that magnificent price at which I was valued by them." So I took the thirty shekels of silver and threw them to the potter in the house of the LORD.

14 Then I cut in pieces my second staff Union, to break the brotherhood between Judah and Israel. NASU

There is only one bilateral Contract that God made with the peoples. The Mosaic Covenant with it's 613 laws, and the punishments for by breaking any of those commandments that applied. Some only for the Levitical priests, some for women, some for men, some for both sexes. They were annihilated when Jesus, having kept the Mosaic Laws till his death, died on the cross in our place, suffering the penalty that we deserved for our sins. Upon the moment of His death. The Heavy Curtain that separated humankind from God was torn asunder.

So I have no idea what Jesus-is-God is obedient to? Does he no longer sin? What Laws of Moses does he feel compelled to keep, in order to receive eternal life and the life abundantly good. (Addressed only to 'Jesus is God', no one should answer for him, and answering is his choice.)

The Greek word 'hupakoe' in the KJV literally means "To Listen to attentively." KJV used the word 'obedience'. Jesus Listen attentively to His Father, and He Kept the Mosaic Laws perfectly until His death, and upon his death He became the perfect Lamb of God whose blood is a covering for all my sins - past, present, and future. I have listened attentively to Jesus words and the prophesy of Zechariah, and accepted the New Covenant with New Laws by accepting gospel of Jesus Christ. Jesus is not a cheerleader cheering for us to keep the whole Mosaic Law, He welcomed us into a New Covenant by which WE ARE SAVED through Him and His atoning Blood shed on the cross. If someone wants to call this obedience, then I am indeed fully obedient through Jesus finished work on the cross on my behalf. I am saved. I have no fear of ever losing my salvation. God dwells in me. I love Him and He loves me.

Ro 5:18-21

18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. NASU

JOY JOY, I am saved by Jesus.

And my obedience is that I have listened attentively to Jesus words, and those of His disciples, and I do believe Him and them, and in context. I am saved by His finished work on the cross. I know He loves me and I know I love Him with all my mind, heart, strength, and soul (The Father and Holy Spirit too). And I am trying to love all those whom I get to know.






_________________
Arthur Biele

 2011/8/17 16:17Profile
JB1968
Member



Joined: 2009/8/31
Posts: 416
Ohio USA

 Re:

NO!


_________________
James

 2011/8/17 17:29Profile









 Re:


ArtB, show me where anyone on this thread said that we must follow the O.T. Laws besides those that Jesus preached in the N.T..

You have not read my posts, nor those of the others on this thread, lest you wouldn't be able to post this -

Quote:
So I have no idea what Jesus-is-God is obedient to? Does he no longer sin? What Laws of Moses does he feel compelled to keep, in order to receive eternal life and the life abundantly good. (Addressed only to 'Jesus is God', no one should answer for him, and answering is his choice.)




You are not only twisting His Words - you are misrepresenting ours.

No big repercussions for what you do to our words, but Major responibility for what you do to HIS.

 2011/8/17 23:07
ArtB
Member



Joined: 2004/4/27
Posts: 431
New York

 Re:

by Jesus-is-GOD on 2011/8/17 20:07:22


"ArtB, show me where anyone on this thread said that we must follow the O.T. Laws besides those that Jesus preached in the N.T..




Are you really claiming that Jesus abolished portions of the Mosaic Covenant and endorsed only a portion of the Mosaic Covenant prior to His crucifixion?

Please enlighten me on what portions He erased during His ministry prior to His Crucifixion, and which portions he kept in the New Covenant after His resurrection?.

And I am not setting you up. I'll make it clear:

Mt 5:17-19 Jesus speaking:

17 "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." NASU

And of course, Jesus is talking about the Laws of the Mosaic Covenant. And He is not talking just about the 10 commandments, He is talking about all 613 Laws along with all the blessings of keeping these laws as written down in the Mosaic Covenant, and as well as all the punishments for failure to keep the Laws Mosaic Covenant, as written down by Moses, who received it from God. When Moses even gave the people the Mosaic Laws, before they had a chance to break the Law of the Covenant, God told Moses that this is a stiff-necked people who will not keep this covenant they agreed to keep.

Jesus-is-God asked me:

"ArtB, show me where anyone on this thread said that we must follow the O.T. Laws besides those that Jesus preached in the N.T."

Jesus did not preach the New Covenant at all prior to His crucifixion. At most, He only hinted of a New Covenant to His disciples, but even then they did not know it until after Jesus resurrection. Had Jesus preached the New Covenant prior to His crucifixion, Jesus would have violated the Mosaic Covenant. At best, Jesus occasionally hinted a New Covenant was coming.

Jesus only preached to His fellow descendants of Israel (Jacob) during His entire ministry. He never once preached the gospel to gentiles. Had He done so, He would been in violation of the Mosaic Covenant, and that is sin, and this would have disqualified Him fulfilling the requirements of the Mosaic Covenant. And this sin would have disqualified Jesus from being the unblemished Lamb of God, and His death on the cross would not have washed away all our sins by His blood to all who accept His blood as atonement for their sins (thus no Christians).

Jesus never preached directly to gentiles during His ministry. He referred to them as dogs who were unworthy of the bread that God has for His Children, the descendants of Israel.

Jesus never preached the New Covenant prior to His crucifixion. Upon His death on the cross, God annihilated the Mosaic Covenant. Upon His resurrection, The New Covenant was established. Jesus began to talk to His disciples plainly about the New Covenant, explaining to them from Scriptures the fulfillment of God's plan from the Mosaic Covenant to the New Covenant of His blood, that all who accept His shed blood on the cross as atonement of all their sins for all time, are saved. Not by works of the Mosaic Law, but by faith in accepting the atoning Blood of Jesus and believing Him with regards to their salvation, and receiving the indwelling Holy Spirit who works all these to the good who have put their trust in Jesus atoning blood shed on the cross.

Thus we now have fellowship with God daily, and we can walk with Him, and talk with Him, and He works in us to transform our very nature so that we do the good He created us to do.

The Mosaic Covenant is dead to those who are in Jesus Christ, and alive to all who reject the atoning blood of Jesus, by doing so moving themselves back under the Mosaic Law, if that be possible.

Jesus-is-God, do not ignore the Book of Hebrews:

Heb 7:11-22

11 Now if perfection was through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the people received the Law), what further need was there for another priest to arise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be designated according to the order of Aaron? 12 For when the priesthood is changed, of necessity there takes place a change of law also. 13 For the one concerning whom these things are spoken belongs to another tribe, from which no one has officiated at the altar. 14 For it is evident that our Lord was descended from Judah, a tribe with reference to which Moses spoke nothing concerning priests. 15 And this is clearer still, if another priest arises according to the likeness of Melchizedek, 16 who has become such not on the basis of a law of physical requirement, but according to the power of an indestructible life. 17 For it is attested of Him,

"YOU ARE A PRIEST FOREVER
ACCORDING TO THE ORDER OF MELCHIZEDEK."

18 For, on the one hand, there is a setting aside of a former commandment because of its weakness and uselessness 19(for the Law made nothing perfect), and on the other hand there is a bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God. 20 And inasmuch as it was not without an oath 21(for they indeed became priests without an oath, but He with an oath through the One who said to Him,

"THE LORD HAS SWORN
AND WILL NOT CHANGE HIS MIND,
'YOU ARE A PRIEST FOREVER'");

22 so much the more also Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant." NASU

Heb 8:7-9:1

For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second. 8 For finding fault with them, He says,
"BEHOLD, DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD,WHEN I WILL EFFECT A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH; 9 NOT LIKE THE COVENANT WHICH I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS ON THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT;FOR THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT,AND I DID NOT CARE FOR THEM, SAYS THE LORD. 10 "FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MINDS,AND I WILL WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS.AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD,AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE. 11 "AND THEY SHALL NOT TEACH EVERYONE HIS FELLOW CITIZEN,AND EVERYONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,'FOR ALL WILL KNOW ME,FROM THE LEAST TO THE GREATEST OF THEM. 12 "FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR INIQUITIES,AND I WILL REMEMBER THEIR SINS NO MORE."

13 When He said, " A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. NASU

See: For there to be a New Covenant, God had to make the first Covenant (i.e. the Mosaic Covenant)obsolete.


Jesus-is-God writes: "You are not only twisting His Words - you are misrepresenting ours."

"No big repercussions for what you do to our words, but Major responibility for what you do to HIS."


I will let God be the judge of that. I believe I portray His words and His plan for our salvation correctly. All was accomplished when Jesus died on the cross. Therefore there is no condemnation for those who are in Jesus Christ.

Ro 8:1-8

Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
NASU

Words mean something. I believe the Scriptures I have quoted. Our salvation is truly a gift from God to us who believe Him and accepted Jesus as our Lord and Savior, and through His atoning Blood shed on the cross. My confidence for my salvation is in God working in me, The indwelling Holy Spirit and I have faith that He will complete the good work He has begun in me.

BTW, Jesus-is-God, I regret that I have offended you. Perhaps if I were wiser, I may have been capable to express things in a better way that would not be offensive. But I am a flawed person and regret that I do not do better.


_________________
Arthur Biele

 2011/8/18 1:29Profile
MyVeryHeart
Member



Joined: 2010/8/30
Posts: 449
Paradise, California

 Re:

Hello ArtB,

Peace in Christ

I just wanted to encourage you in the simplicity and pure
devotion of Jesus. After reading some of your posts I saw that you spoke of Love. By loving Jesus fervently we are filled with such joy that it flows like rivers. These rivers of love flow to where the Holy Spirit wants to go, where Jesus wants to bring life, to all the fading lives that need this water. This is a very deep well, this fountain of life that is Christ. Continue to Draw deeply from him Brother and your love of others will increase as Christ increases in you.

Love in Christ Jesus,

Travis


_________________
Travis

 2011/8/18 2:12Profile
ArtB
Member



Joined: 2004/4/27
Posts: 431
New York

 Re: Many Thanks, Travis

Travis,

I truly appreciate your kind and and encouraging words.

ArtB


_________________
Arthur Biele

 2011/8/18 2:24Profile









 Re:

TWO LAWS

Paul speaks of two laws in Romans 8:2, the law of the Spirit of life and law of sin and death. The law of the Spirit of life is the path of light and the law of sin and death is the path of darkness. The two laws were typified in the Garden of Eden and the Old Covenant and a New Covenant, through the two trees, the one of life and the other of knowledge. The tree of life is Christ and when we feed from or live in Christ, we have no sin, but if we do not, we are condemned by it, even though we make a confession that we know Christ, and because we are still in our sin, then we die spiritually and live in notions and according to our own knowledge and the life of Christ is not within us keeping us free from sin and preventing us from falling, as in Jude 24. Now unto Him that is able to keep you from falling and to present you faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy.

According to George Fox we are “Out of the light, out of grace, out of truth Spirit and power of God such as resist the Holy Ghost, quench, vex and grieve the Holy Spirit of God and hate the light and turn the grace of God into wantonness and despise prophesying revelation and inspiration, they are dogs and unbelievers that are without the city. (The heavenly city of God, Journal 575)

The New Covenant existed before the Old Covenant law was ratified through Moses. It showed up first in the Garden typified in the tree, and then explained more fully with the appearance of Melchisedec King of Righteousness through whom Abraham also became perfect as others did too in the Old Testament and so were delivered from the law of sin and death not through obedience to the Mosaic law but by faith.

The question remains, how are we to walk in the Spirit and mortify the deeds of the body? Paul deals with this question in Romans. In 8:13 he says For if ye live after the flesh ye shall die but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body ye shall live and have the creature itself delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God Romans 8:21 for He that spareth not His own Son but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also, freely give us all things. Romans 8:32. Therefore we are buried with Him by baptism into death that as like Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father; even so we also should walk in newness of life Romans 6:4 and like our Lord who gave us the example, obeying Gods will in all things, through obedience to the voice within our conscience and not to the letter of the law which cannot deliver from sin.

It was through His action alone that we are sanctified, through Christ coming into us in all the fullness of the possession of the Holy Spirit and the washing of the blood as an INNER cleansing.

The blood of Christ is not to wash us outwardly, but it is to enter into our very hearts, to sprinkle and make clean and pure so that our heart becomes new. Our polluted blood is now gone. It is this inward cleansing that Paul desired himself and had not yet attained when he saw in Romans 7:22 that although he desired to do the will of God, knowing as a believer, that it must be even in the thought life, whereas a Jew he only knew outward obedience and was therefore proud in the practise of his religion not despairing as some would have it, he was unable (23) to do so to the extent that God required of him once it was revealed to him and he cried out O wretched man that I am who will deliver me? The answer came in the next verse that the answer was through Jesus Christ and in 8:2 coming into the law of the Spirit and life through accepting that Christ did it on the cross and he had to likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord 6:11.

Yield yourselves unto God as those that are alive from the dead and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God 6:13 But now being made free from sin and become the servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness and the end everlasting life 6:22 I beseech you therefore brethren by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable unto God which is your REASONABLE service12:1 and be not conformed to this world but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind that ye may prove what is the good and acceptable and perfect will of God 12:2

Christ has done it all and has paid the price for us to have the sin nature destroyed. We were crucified with Him 2.000 years ago and it is not something that we must do for ourselves in the future by trying to tame the flesh.  Our part is to co-operate with God in His mighty work in us by consenting to conform our will with His Thy will be done and He will be able to swiftly do the necessary work in the application of the blood of Christ into our heart and performing the circumcision which will release us from the law of sin and death so that we can emerge into His glorious kingdom. To continue in sin  shows us who our lord is, ie the originator of it.

 2011/8/18 2:50









 Re:

"i remember paull also have an argument with m was it barnabus and then they never spoke again that was also sin"

I hve not said that it is impossible to fall into sin again but that does not mean that the apostles continued in sin. It often happens after one is entirely sanctified but the lesson is learnt and one can then resist. John Wesley noted this in his interviews with those who claimed sinlessness.

Jesus showed us in the sermon on the mount that even lusting for a woman is sin under the new covenant.

I am the chief of sinners too, in my own strength and without the grace of God holding me and keeping me from falling. If we are led by the Holy Spirit we will avoid sin even in the thought life. Sin comes from the heart and a heart that is not entirely devoted to God will follow its loves in life and will behave as you have described. If you were a soldier in an army and showed the same lack of duty and devotion to your country, would you be able to behave in the same manner? No.

"the bible exorts us
to confess our falts to one another
and pray for one another that we maby healed
and then says it the efual feverent prayer of the righeous man avalis much under these circumstances"

Of course, there is a time for confession and healing of these faults. Is the Lordss healing ineffective? No. The righteous man who avails much cannot be in the same state as the unhealed. That would be the blind leading the blind.

 2011/8/18 3:02





©2002-2024 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Revival to this Generation.
Privacy Policy