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 Re:

Gary wrote

"he loved the lord his god with all his mind soul strength all the time every seconed of every day ,and his perfect obedance to his law proved that with out any doubt ,,we fall short of that type of perfection,"

But that is the first commandment FOR US! If we do not then we are living a life of sin - habitual sin.

Brenda

 2011/8/15 14:00
brothergary
Member



Joined: 2011/8/6
Posts: 103


 Re:

brenda if you think you can love god in the same way christ loved god evy miniute of the day ,then your the greatses christ i know

even in scripture we see lak of love towards god at time ,by the apostals

showing they were not perfect and sinless , but stilll made quite big mistakes

 2011/8/15 16:21Profile









 Re:

What sins - lets call them sins not mistakes - did they commit then Gary?

 2011/8/15 16:29
ArtB
Member



Joined: 2004/4/27
Posts: 431
New York

 Re: Can Love For God be Separated from Obedience ?

Whenever I hear the word 'obedience' a red flag goes off in my mind.

Even the title: Can Love For God be Separated from Obedience? 'Begs the Question' obedient to what?

Let's rephrase the question to:

Can Love For God be Separated from Obedience TO GOD?

It still begs the question, specifically what does God want us to obey?

Now let us speculate what that 'WHAT' is.

a. Keep the Mosaic Laws. Yet no one but Jesus ever kept the entire Mosaic laws. Everyone else fails to keep, including Moses whom this Contract of keeping the Laws bears his name.
And this is as true today as it was in before Jesus Christ. God told Moses that the peoples entering the promised land would never be obedient to the Mosaic Laws that they just agreed to obey them all.

b. Keep the Laws of the New Covenant of Jesus Christ? How many Christians actually even know what they are?

C. Obedience means keeping the 7 sacraments by the Catholic Church to the extent permissible by their rules, which are held by a few other similar denominations?

Back to the question: Can Love For God be Separated from Obedience?

I sure hope so, because every sin we commit is an act of disobedience, and we all sin continually. As Pointed out by the Apostle John:

1 Jn 1:5-10
This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; 7 but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 IF WE SAY WE HAVE NOT SINNED, WE MAKE HIM A LIAR AND HIS WORD IS NOT IN US. NASU

WOULD ALL HERE AGREE THAT each of our sins is is an act of disobedience?

And yet, we do love God. We are just not perfect. God knows this, and all He ask is that we confess our sins to Him, and He is faithful forgive all our sins and He will also cleanse us from unrighteousness. That is not our job, it is His. He gave us the indwelling Holy Spirit, God-in-me, to change our nature that we may do the good He created us to do.

The Royal Law of Love, to love God with all our heart, mind and soul, and to love our neighbor as much as we love ourselves. The more we try, the better we get at Loving.

We should wisely consider the Law of Liberty: that as we measure unto others, so shall it be measured to us. As we judge others, so shall we be judged. MERCY TRIUMPHS OVER JUDGEMENT. Love and forgive. Love and forgive.

And do not quench the indwelling Holy Spirit by whom we are sealed as God's children, and whom works in us daily to change our very nature that we may do the good that God created us to do. And KNOW that God will succeed in completing the work He started in us when we accepted Jesus as our Savior.

So, what I view as God's - soon to be completed - work in us, which you may call obedience, but will be easy because of Love. Love is all important, we need to love, love, love, and God will perfect us in love

1 Co 16:14 Let all that you do be done in love.

Eph 3:14-19
I bow my knees before the Father, from whom every family in heaven and on earth derives its name, that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in LOVE, may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, and to know the LOVE of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God.

1 Th 3:11-13
Now may our God and Father Himself and Jesus our Lord direct our way to you; and may the Lord cause you to increase and abound in LOVE for one another, and for all people, just as we also do for you; so that He may establish your hearts without blame in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all His saints.

1 Jn 4:15-21
Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. We have come to know and have believed the LOVE which God has for us.

God is LOVE, and the one who abides in LOVE abides in God, and God abides in him. By this, LOVE is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment; because as He is, so also are we in this world.

There is no fear in LOVE; but perfect LOVE casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love.

We LOVE, because He first loved us.

20 If someone says, "I LOVE God," and hates his brother, he is a liar; for the one who does not LOVE his brother whom he has seen, cannot LOVE God whom he has not seen. And this commandment we have from Him, that the one who LOVES God should LOVE his brother also.

LOVE LOVE LOVE!

It is my opinion that true LOVE of God and of one another leads to true obedience to God without any effort whatsoever, but is pure joy. For God is Love.










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Arthur Biele

 2011/8/15 23:26Profile
brothergary
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Joined: 2011/8/6
Posts: 103


 Re:

when peter comitted the sin of hipocracy for how long we dont no for sure , it was a big mistake for him not to teach the truth and teach the gentiles to live as jews especicaly when he was living like a gentile regarding diet ect
he sined against god , and wile he was doing this his love was wavering , in fear ,,when one is in fear ,he canot be expressing the love of god at this precice time ,
he wansnt expressing love properly toward his neibour ,or to god at this time he was expressing fear ,and paull saw through it and rebuked him

i know he loved god ,but he still struggeld to express it in is actions ,,,,,and love is not just a feeling ,but actions ,when we perform actions contrary to actions of love , we are not loving god with all our heart mind soul and strength ,peters mind was captured by fear and hiporcacy

that was all i was saying

i wasnt saying we should all go around sinning god forbid

i believe in the fruit of the spirit , it must be evedent


even sleaping in in the morning for half an hour is sin for me ,, i should be up praying to god becasue he deservs it , im not saying im really willing to not pray ,, but the flesh still trys to stop me , a wrectcerd man that i am who will delievrd me from the body of death

im a cheif of sinners

i wont say im the presedent of sinneres , i dont think paull was teaching that
but it is a worthy saying as paull said worty of all excepettation ,, i except it

bless you sis

i like you name

my lovely wifes name is brenda as well

you seem verry strong and firery like her lol

 2011/8/16 1:58Profile
brothergary
Member



Joined: 2011/8/6
Posts: 103


 Re:

but i dont expect anyone to except my theological point of view

 2011/8/16 3:22Profile
mguldner
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Joined: 2009/12/4
Posts: 1860
Kansas

 Re:

Amen brother Art, I asked the question to stir up deeper thought than the black and white, and you gave a well balanced answer that I agree with and view as biblical and lining up with the Word of God.

We are dark but He finds us lovely, We are saved not because our Love is so amazing but we are saved because His love is amazing. True Love will lead to Obedience as others have said but in no way shape or form are we perfect Lovers of God, BUT if Christ be in us then we have True Love residing in Us, I don't believe we can Love God with our Love but we are empowered to Love God with God's Love that He gives us through the Holy Spirit.

My personal view of God is that of a Father who will discipline his child but He disciplines out of Love so we will quit hurting ourselves with sin, which is something I think many seem to forget, SIN Hurts. God wants us free not only to freely Love Him but also because He doesn't enjoy seeing His children hurting. We do disobey but as you said if we confess our sins He is faithful to forgive us our sins.

Something that I find interesting Jesus says in John 4 paraphrased "It won't matter where we worship but God's worshipers will worship in Spirit and Truth." Can we operate in the Spirit of God? Yes, its a Spirit of Humility, Love, Holiness and What Truth? I believe their are two truths to consider, 1 the Truth about God Christ Jesus, and 2 the Truth about us, ie meaning honesty with ourselves that Yes we fail and fall and need a Saviour and Lord. BUT all in all Its Christ doing everything in us and so its nothing we can boast or brag about because without Christ we are the heathens so many religious christians like to turn up their noses to.


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Matthew Guldner

 2011/8/16 4:38Profile
ArtB
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Joined: 2004/4/27
Posts: 431
New York

 Re:

Amen mguldner, my brother in Jesus Christ!


_________________
Arthur Biele

 2011/8/17 0:46Profile









 Re:


When we 'fear' the word "obedience", that's when the red flag should come up.

Obedience to what? His Words are in our New Testament, so that's an easy question to answer.

Love & obedience are synonymous in HIS Word. They go hand in hand. We can't have one without the other.
When the Word "obedience" comes to our minds - it should be with utter joy, because of our hearts of Love & Gratitude toward Him, for all that He's done for us.

A Bride that Loves her Husband, submits gladly, because she loves Him. As Ephesians 5 speaks of Christ and His Church.

What good husband wants a rebellious wife, when he knows that her rebellion is only hurting her and depriving her of all the riches he desires to pour out and robbing her of the authority in his name?

Will a rebellious Church have power?

If we cause others to get "red flags" at that beautiful word "obedience" - what could the consequences be?



Jesus' / The Word of GOD's test of our "Love" ...



Heb 5:8,9 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; and being made perfect,
he became the author of eternal salvation
unto all them that obey him



Joh 14:15 If ye love Me, keep My commandments.



Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love Me,
he will keep My words: and My Father will love him,
and We will come unto him, and make Our abode with him.



Joh 15:10 If ye keep My commandments,
ye shall abide in My love;
even as I have kept My Father's commandments,
and abide in His love.



2Co 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God,
and bringing into captivity Every thought
to the obedience of Christ




We can "tweek" The WORD of GOD by slicing and dicing it, for our own satisfaction.
Can Christ be divided or only parts of Him be handed out?
Pray that we reverence The Word of GOD that He left us,
and fear cutting Him to pieces.
We only love 'Jesus', as much as we love "The Word of GOD".
Anything less is another Jesus and another spirit.

 2011/8/17 1:33
mguldner
Member



Joined: 2009/12/4
Posts: 1860
Kansas

 Re:

So Jesus-is-God you then Love God, by being 100% obedient? If obedience and Love are synonomous, then hate and disobedience would be as well, would it not?

So in order to love God we must be 100% obedient all the time? I am not asking to be a wise guy, I truly am curious as to your thoughts on this.

Is it the striving that God looks at in the heart ie the attitude or the 100% follow through of obedience?

From all of this though you could look at someones life and say they love Jesus less than you granted your obedience is more, correct?

Where does obedience come into play on Salvation? Is 100% obedience required to be saved?


_________________
Matthew Guldner

 2011/8/17 2:58Profile





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